Current music vs 'old'?

[GregB]

Possibly just echoing my 'old man' gut feel, but this is from a much younger guy who steadily covers several creative and technical aspects of music worth considering ... and this is from almost a decade ago!

 

 

 

Greg

 

[starise]

All depending on one's age I suppose old and new could be different. I still refuse to call myself old.

 

I have little interest in new music, or at least the promoted music. Why? Because most of it is a packacged product only intended to sell.

There are some really creative talented people who are not promoted. 

 

 

[john]

There is one easy solution (easy huh?). Create awesome music. If it really bothers you, also learn how to promote your music and any other awesome music you hear!

 

[starise]

I guess I still need to do that.

[john]

9 hours ago, starise said:

I guess I still need to do that.

 

It was a general comment to us old timers. If we don’t like it, we can change it by at least giving chart music a run for it’s money.

 

Personally, I find quite a lot of great music around, although most of the modern stuff I like is in the alt categories, which is has a lot of independent made music.

[Glammerocity]

I think what he's done, or what he's interpreted the study's findings as, is that timbre defines quality, in which case Herman's Hermits had more validity than Prince, who was right in the middle of the 80s tech revolution largely responsible for levelling timbre.

 

It's certainly true that it was easier in The Beatles' day to sound less Roland A1 patch, but then they had the luxury of a budget for an orchestra. Now everybody has access to orchestral sounds, albeit they're produced in a factory. It's still all about your song, not your sounds.

 

So, science, who gets the most joy from music: old rock fans or young popsters? In an article called The Joy of Music, Psychology Today notes, "An unexpected change in intensity and tempo is one of the primary means by which music provokes a strong emotional response in listeners." Yay for kpop, which I found was rather like prog rock in the way it'll often go into a drumless quieter section. I've also heard a few songs which have suddenly gone from 4/4 into a 12/8 section.

 

There are a number of reasons we listen to music - nostalgia, self-identity, empathy, a sense of community - but timbre doesn't seem to be rated.

 

The article says nostalgia "is the most frequent emotion evoked by music." We like famliarity and being reminded of the good times we had. That doesn't make it any more valid or creative than current music, it just has the advantage of time. And we can sometimes remember things through rose-tinted ears. I was a Deep Purple fan in my teens but now when I hear them I think Ian Gillan is simply shouting in tune. I much prefer their post-split era, when they all started writing and recording proper riffless songs. Because it's all about your song, a skill which didn't die in 1979.

 

Ref: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/science-of-choice/202403/the-joy-of-music

Edited April 1 by Glammerocity

[Mahesh]

On 4/1/2024 at 5:16 PM, Glammerocity said:

Yay for kpop, which I found was rather like prog rock in the way it'll often go into a drumless quieter section. I've also heard a few songs which have suddenly gone from 4/4 into a 12/8 section.

 

 

I agree, the sound tracks for Japanese/Korean games, TV shows and anime movies has better music and rather progressive for it to be mainstream. Always so astonished these days about how simplicity gets mistaken for boring while writing songs and how so many songs sound the same.

Also agreed with @john that indie music is so much more versatile than what mainstream charts lead you to believe.

[Johnny Quid]

I like to feel nostalgic with old music, I constantly compare its sound with modern music and sometimes I just have a vibe to listen to the “old”. But I really like what's happening with Japanese/Korean/Chinese music now. It seems to me that it goes through the entire phase of the 00s and 10s in just a couple of years. And I like that all genres exist simultaneously in the mainstream: rock and pop go side by side and sound cool.

[GregB]

Yep. The 'nostalgia' element if key.  Ask anyone about their favourite music and they'll usually refer back to stuff from their teens and early twenties ... those formative rebellious young-adult years when we absorb everything around us and share so much of our own generation within the echo-chamber of tight-knit friends.  

[Pantonal]

I read somewhere that the music we like at 14 years of age will define our taste for the rest of our lives.  I was 14 in 1968 so in my mind that means Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, Procol Harem, Ten Years After and Johnny Winter. I was already familiar with the Beatles, Beach Boys, etc. That was also the year I discovered the organ music of Bach and that set me on the road to discovering classical music. Much of the music of the 70s and 80s grew out of what came before.

 

What I don't understand about today's music is the ever smaller genres into which music is categorized. What in the past may have been the normal variability of an artist's style is now veering outside your lane. Imagine the variety of the songs the Beatles produced, could an artist today do both Help and Nowhere Man, much less I Want to Hold Your Hand and Let it Be?

[IanIanaSpencer]

whenever this get's brought up, I always think of the concept of the "sift of time"

 

For every rock and hip-hop classic of the 90s, for instance, there were a couple of ultra-safe pop songs that we just don't remember because they didn't have a lasting impact. Fun fact: the top-grossing song of 1992 was some Brain Adams song know one remembers (tbh I forgot the name of it since learning about that)

 

If you want some modern artists that really push musical boundaries:

 

-1-800-PAIN is an experimental hip-hop duo that mixes gangster-rap with hyperpop, industrial metal and extreme noise music. They can be really challenging on a first listen since they experiment with intense levels of distortion, but their worth getting into

 

-WARGASM (UK) is a really great modern industrial band

 

-Rina Sawayama is an experimental pop artist from the UK that combines Y2k-era rnb with nu metal and rave, her song "XS" is simultaneously intense and catchy, and she mixes the oldschool rnb harmonies with burst of sludgy grunge guitars rather seamlessly

 

-Dorian Electra is another avant-popstar, but where as Sawayama's music is artful and restrained, Electra's music is completely bonkers. They have quite a few songs that veer into really unexpected directions (e.g.: "Ram It Down"). Dorian's music is influenced by everything from 80s pop ballads to extreme metal to happy hardcore, if you want something really out there listen to them,

 

or KILL KRYPTO!, but that's my own project so i'm being a little self-involved with that XD

 

btw i think the problem is less that good music is less common and more that the algorithms make good music harder to find

[john]

Woot Kill Krypto! Cipher metal? 🙂

[Auburn]

I agree somewhat, but there are plenty of recent acts that are legitimately quality and fascinating. In my opinion there isn't any more trash than there was before, but thing is - we don't remember that shit. There was plenty of filler garbage in the past, but it hasn't really been preserved or cherished. We're just more exposed to the modern stuff. 
Definitely more complex than that. The modern music scene is drastically different from what it was 50 years ago, but we do always need to aware of survivorship bias. 

[Kevin1]

On 5/15/2024 at 3:12 PM, Pantonal said:

I read somewhere that the music we like at 14 years of age will define our taste for the rest of our lives.  I was 14 in 1968 so in my mind that means Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, Procol Harem, Ten Years After and Johnny Winter. I was already familiar with the Beatles, Beach Boys, etc. That was also the year I discovered the organ music of Bach and that set me on the road to discovering classical music. Much of the music of the 70s and 80s grew out of what came before.

 

While that is true to some extent, its not always. I liked at 14, Deep Purple, Black Sabbath, Slade, Nazareth, Rush to name a few. I could careless if I ever hear any of that now. 

   I'm always seeking out new music. Its hard to find great music nowadays, but I have found a few.  I can't stand listening to the radio. We have 6 or 7 radio stations in the area and allplay stomach turning classic rock. I sometimes wonder how people listen to the same songs over and over. Great songs when they came out, but after hearing them a billion times it gets very old. 

 Its either classic rock or some rapper reciting bad poetry on a lot of radio. As for most original music that people who have written their own songs, on various forums, hardly a mention. Then you have Joe blow doing a classic rock song and they get a ton of comments.

[john]

5 minutes ago, Kevin1 said:

As for most original music that people who have written their own songs, on various forums, hardly a mention.

 

The problem is, most independents don’t know how to market and promote themselves or their music, they haven’t taken the time to understand either the traditional music industry or the newly evolving opportunities they could take advantage of.

 

There once was a myth of “being discovered”. It largely evolved around playing some gigs locally and gradually playing better gigs. At some point either you, or a mix, was “discovered” by someone with influence, money, access and interest, who would champion you as an artist and from then you were made. It was bullshit then and even more bullshit now. Still, many artists rotted on the vine waiting to be discovered. Music marketing was a black art, and understanding it had a whiff of selling out. Also complete bullshit.

 

The truth is, most artists like making music, and have zero knowledge or very naive application of that knowledge of music marketing. They have zero understanding of the business of music and zero motivation to learn about it. Importantly there is often a feeling of rejection of learning because that too makes you interested in selling out. Also complete bullshit.

 

Between people who actually believe all the bullshit and the people they influence by shouting loudly, too many artists either wait in vein to be discovered, or they tinker around the edges with completely disjointed and isolated tactics. They then become even more bitter than they were, blaming an industry they never took the time to understand for their lack of success.

 

Don’t get me wrong. They are defeated by ignorance and misinformation, and at least some of that is self-inflicted. This is not about fame, or the possibility of fame. It is simply about doing something with their music. I would not criticise someone for pursuing fame, but I would highlight the extremely small chance of success in becoming a top flight star. However, becoming a full-time artist is very possible, as is achieving a degree of fame. Fame is something that has had no appeal to me since I was pretty young, it’s not for me. I love playing, writing recording, having fans of my music, but the complete loss of privacy is no joke and I couldn’t live like that.

 

My point is not to rant. A load of original music never gets a shout out because, the artists did very little to promote it, often didn’t so much release it as made it available, and they don’t leverage back catalog when making new releases. Indies have a lot of potential for power within the industry, but they do not work together, and numbers is one of their biggest potential strengths… and they completely squander that. They are overlooked by the public and by most radio stations, bloggers, reactors and influencers, because independent artists overlook them. They don’t give people a chance to notice their music and often do little but complain at being overlooked… which goes back entirely to the mindset of “being discovered”.

 

The onus IS NOT on others to discover us. The onus is ENTIRELY ON US to put our music in a place where it cannot be avoided. The onus is also entirely on us, to do as much as we can to have people encounter our music in as favourable a way as possible. It is entirely on us that they remember us and our music, and it is entirely on us to motivate them to keep listening until they get our music and ar hungry for more. Simple.

 

Collectively indies do far too little together, and virtually nothing for the good of the scene, the music environment and we shoot ourselves in the foot at every turn.

 

Most independent artists run the industry down, they contribute to society’s devaluing of music and they blame everyone but themselves.

 

Success for an artist varies in scale, but generally it takes years of concerted effort to achieve, and a lot of that is spent making mistakes and learning.

 

Mindset is what undermines independent artists. Their own mindset as individuals.  Our collective mindset is also important, and it no doubt has a major effect on the general attitude towards music and musicians, but success for our music? That is completely in our hands.

[Mahesh]

17 hours ago, john said:

The onus IS NOT on others to discover us. The onus is ENTIRELY ON US to put our music in a place where it cannot be avoided. The onus is also entirely on us, to do as much as we can to have people encounter our music in as favourable a way as possible. It is entirely on us that they remember us and our music, and it is entirely on us to motivate them to keep listening until they get our music and ar hungry for more. Simple.

 

 

If I'd only known and understood this when I started off when younger, I'm sure I would have been SOOO far ahead in my music career than where I am now. Not that I'm not being grateful for how I've grown and progressed, but there's SO MANY people who believe that the work as a musician stops as soon as you finish writing the music and put it out there for release. I've known some artists who CHOOSE not to promote their album and just put it out there. "If people like the music, they will come and they will pay" "My role is that of an artist, it is beneath me to promote my music" and many more.

I see it much differently now. And because of it, I've been even excited to work on my fanbase - one listener at a time. I've got nowhere else to go

[john]

1 hour ago, Mahesh said:

And because of it, I've been even excited to work on my fanbase - one listener at a time.

 

Quite right. Your fanbase are not your enemy. By courting them you are not a sell out. Your fans are YOUR PEOPLE. They identify with your music. They get it. They support you. Why would you not support them? Trying to find more of them is entirely reasonable. Why would you not want to find more of your people?

 

I never understood the arrogance of artists, nor their stupidity, when it comes to their sense of entitlement.

 

“Build it and they will come” is arrogant in the extreme. It is a “no strategy - strategy” and it sucks ass. Arrogance aside, having spent ages making their music, why would you then just drop it and expect the universe to do all the heavy lifting for you? Breaking news to all artists, you are not entitled to anything. The universe owes you nothing. Nada.

 

Here’s the large chunk of the picture artists are missing. When you write a song, the job for a songwriter is not done. The job is only done when they get an artist to take on playing/recording the song. Writing it is only part of the job. If they don’t get an artist to take it on, the song sits on a shelf… and might as well not have been written. Tbh even then the job isn’t really done until you

 

As an artist, the job is not done when you arrange the song. It isn’t done when you record a song, mix it, or master it. It isn’t done until you deliver it to your audience, make sure they “take it on”, and that they too are satisfied. If they stop short of any of these, they might as well not have bothered at all. Until they complete delivery, and ensure it is well delivered, it remains in obscurity.

 

It is not up to the universe to fill in for our inadequacy, our arrogance or our nativity. The truth is, our music is obscure and overlooked, because of our decisions. Is it entitlement? I think it is a big part of it. I think the other big part of it is fear. Our fear of rejection (by the general public) causes us to pull our punches. We cannot lose a race if we don’t run it. Our psyche can live with that failure a lot more than the potential public humiliation.

 

So, we hobble ourselves and wrap it up neatly in a vague “true, real artists don’t need to promote their music” and “real artists don’t charge for their music”. That’s just what some tell themselves, an excuse they tell themselves, a salve to make them feel better. They didn’t fail because their music was “bad”. They failed because they weren’t given a shot, because the industry refused to look their way, because they didn’t have enough money. Whatever the reason, it was never something they did or didn’t do. It was something thrust upon them, something they had no control over.

 

No matter. If they truly want to be artists worthy giving a damn about, there is hope. Their actions can and will make a huge difference. They can build something, a following for their music… but they have to be active.

 

On charging for it… people take free for granted. A small number will take “free”, value it for what it actually is. Many will take, but have no loyalty. They value it but feel entitled. Many will not see it or value it in any way. They park it on a shelf to be used when needed, some day. Many others simply will not see the value in it. The end.

 

We set the value for what we create. Others pay it, or they don’t. Free or paid, they still have to want what we offer. Our job as artists is to present what we have and make it attractive, appetising. We have to give them an appetite for our music. Encourage their hunger. Feed them. We don’t sell them steak. We give them an appetite by exposing them to the sizzle.

[VSThost]

Guess I'm going old... When I hear auto-tune, for example, I immediately dismiss what I hear... But... Kids seem to like it...

[VoiceEx]

I like this topic because I don't have a problem saying that I've always felt like the music I grew up with is better than what we have nowadays. And in bulk 😅 The science and history of it all is great, but my opinion remains the same 👍

 

And, no, this doesn't stop me from appreciating and enjoying modern music, or enjoying the fruits of modern technology. It simply means that I have personal preferences. And since I also happen to be a musician, I have the ability to create the kind of music that I want to listen too, and pick and choose which elements I prefer from both worlds. And If I think something sucks, then i'll try to make something that doesn't suck. That's the whole point if you ask me!

Edited June 27 by VoiceEx

[Greg M]

I appreciate that the debate about "being discovered" and "making yourself hard to be avoided" has merit but, fundamentally, what the music business was like when I was first getting into music in the later 60s and through the 70s and 80s was PROFIT.

Record companies employed people to go out and find bands that might be good enough to be exploited, to create more riches for the record companies themselves.

The "Indie" movement challenged this and took a large chunk of the music market away from the established recording companies, and maybe the level of exploitation of artists changed a little bit but it was still there.

What I have noticed and really enjoyed is the number of unsigned bands and artists that we have been seeing at the bigger multi-stage music festivals for the last ten years at least. The big concert venues are now really big, with major artists and bands playing multiple shows at a few venues around the country. This has been a way for artists to make more money themselves, as opposed to just making records where the vast majority of the money made goes to the recording companies.

But what has happened as this centralisation of big concerts has proliferated, is that the number of smaller venues around the country that show live music has grown to an enormous extent. Bands without recording contracts get to play at big festivals and arrange tours around the country playing at small venues. It is possible to make a living out of playing live music without having to have a recording contract.

There is still the issue of getting noticed in the first place, but there are lot more ways that this can occur now.

 

I went to see Sting and his band play in Sherwood Forest in Nottingham (UK) a few days ago. Sting was brilliant but he brought with him two guest artists who were relatively unknown

 

"Storry" is what I would describe as an Rand B artist  (or Soul artist) who sings her life through her songs. Brilliant if not a little heavy.

 

But the second band who played,  "Germein" , were a three piece band from Australia made up of the three Germein sisters. A brilliant display of melodic rock music that I could not fault. They weren't doing the sexy young thing approach, they were serious musicians. They had been playing around Australia for over ten years and their only album was made in 2013, since then only a long list of singles had been recorded, which I happily added to my playlist. They have been making a living and building a reputation for 12 years and this is the first time they had been outside Australia. That morning was the first time that any of them had seen a squirrel.

They finally got noticed, but they didn't sit around waiting for it. The played their music and honed their skills and are now really worth listening to

 

Just my two penn'eth