Donna

What makes a lyrical hook effective? First, I like that Lazz' example was not a chorus. Usually simplicity, melody and repetition.

Lazz - thanks for the insight and examples. I am with you - "engage" and "pleasing me". I'm glad you honed in on John's list. That number 5 really might be a devistation for others, if not for John. "If I Were A Carpenter" - my opinion: probably the most intimate, haunting, beautiful love song ever made. Or specifically, Bobby Darin's recorded studio version. I will NEVER forget the words, melody and mood of that song.

I think I'll have to bow out, John. It's hard to know at this point...

Hey all~ If too many low frequencies can cancel each other out, is the reverse true? That too many high frequencies can cancel one another out, resulting in mud or boom? Also...does the gain - or can it - fit into the above somehow...if the gains are riding high on too many things, is there a predictable net effect? Any principles are helpful, thanks.

1) Tgrover way 2) Bitstream way Ying and the Yang

This is very good - talk about know thyself. You explain well how you do things. Using the Johnny/Bad Maid/Bar Fight example, as a parameter within a parameter, do you KNOW if your story is set in stone? Must it be for example, that Johnny did actions a-c which lead to d? Could someone else be doing some of those actions (or having some of his thoughts - maybe he remembers Mama telling him Daddy did the same thing) or ?? Endless possibilites there. I watched a George Lucas interview. Hearing him speak for ten minutes on himself as a storyteller, how he tried to fulfill that really helped open my mind. It's a bear, to come up against the same thing again (re: your first paragraph). I think I recall author Evelyn Waugh sounding off on being a craftsman...not the serene image one might have of a successful writer, *lounging w/ wine gobblet, lingering deftly, effortlessly creating, editing, refining*. But rather struggling, in doubt, in lack of perspective, unable to judge, unable to let go. Possibly hacking and burning here and there. This is a part of what we face at some point. But can get wearying and frustrating. Hey - happpy for you, that you're writing a lot. You have a whole audience here wanting to see your labor when it's finished.

John - it may not be the idea itself which you're too attached to, but the parameters set down (knowingly or not) in which you're willing to express it. It might be interesting to find out if you do have parameters and what those might be - just the kind of self exam I'd think you'd be suited for. I hope something may apply?

That's a good question! Yeah - hints on writing line w/ fixed lyrical rythym, PLUS FIXED VOWELS, and syllable location. Precisely, exchanging a new line for an existing fixed lyrical rythym, etc; Maybe someone knows a shortcut. It'd help to know simply if anyone else wrestles with this.

Yeah!

bump

What a cool thread!

Here's whatI wrestle with. Existing lyric which needs changing, but the vowels and syllables themselves are already what I'm used to, and usually what I want. Sometimes the consonants, too. This would be for a lyric which already has melody, or a definite rythym I am set on. Example: Existing lyric: She stole from a peach tree New lyric : Theiving for a fruit unknown The new lyric may be what what's required for force of expression, poetry, whatever, but I need the "ee's" from peach and tree, need the "ole" from stole - or at least the "oh". And, not necessarily need them because they make the next or preceeding line work. Ditto, the syallables and the way these lay. This kind of thing may be why MaCartney's Yesterday apparently had a working title of Scrambled Eggs. Any hints??

Hey- I think I've figured out some things. First, it's easier going direct in this household, anyway. Less intrerference. I have a new Seagull acoustic/electric and went to work last eve on Phase II of my project (recording guitars 1 and 2) Secondly, now that I'm able to get better instrument separation on existing tracks (just in the past couple of days), the guitars are coming out more distinct. Thirdly, I did mute effects spilling onto existing tracks and put them just on the guitar while recording *it*. I'm getting pretty excited and can hardly believe things've come this far....listening on 2 dif. sets of speakers, the snare, kick, cymbals, toms, bass, guitars one and two, organ and strings are sounding separate. And all that, on two tracks....it's basically four conglomerates: drums, sequencer (bass/strings/organ), guitars 1 and 2. But it's been something trying to get the sequenced lines a coherent whole in itself. I'm keeping pretty detailed records and wish I had some grid paper for a soundboard...you know, I've made a lot of circles lately, filling in the eq/trim/effects for each stage. I think there's about 3 substages within each stage. Will try again micing guitar at some point, maybe sooner rather than later, but it seems to be sounding pretty good going direct.

Mon Capitaine, I think I understand, but am not sure. However: Ah, but what drove Johnny to be so stupid? Is he just stupid? Then why write a song about this unless there's something engaging about him? Maybe there's something behind his loyalty to this bum of a girl that makes it interesting. Hey- I just read a novel about an medival girl betrothed to a man she barely knew - but her betrothed entered a monastery due to wounds of war and unfit for married life. She was of such mettle that she disguised herself (even to him) as a monk and cared for him til his deathbed several years later. It's full of mystery and heroism - some would say she was stupid, tho. ...that's what I meant about considering one's self a storyteller. I guess some folks could be helped by asking "who what where why?" That abstract form is beautiful, though. The thing is, even if the idea can be expressed in one line, life is dynamic, the song is. And I say that being a great admirer-er of conciseness and editing! People need to know how the idea manifests as (the way you move, etc;) and the story in your song may need it as well. The bare idea while it is the core needs something more....maybe it'd be like cooking without spices, or even heat. Just plop down the basic food groups, raw, there's your food (idea)...maybe not even a plate or utensils to eat wiff. I think JB may've hit the nail on the head, about being too close to gain perspective. It happens....

Oh - just wanted to add that musicially this happens with me as well (reminds me of Finn talking about the "themes" he comes with, to string together). Well, I had a beautiful theme written over 16 years ago, and now I'm pretty sure I'll be finally using it. That's not helpful for what you're working on presently, Mon Capitaine, but maybe you having something of old (idea or actual lyric snippet) that's just been waiting to be used with the present unfinished stuff? A long shot - but then again, maybe not!

John, can you explain what you mean by "2 (a)"? The overgeneralizing/overlapping? I know I've had this obstacle before, meaning #1 both (a) and ( - I marked your paragraphs and changed format a bit for easier reference. I did find that in those cases sometimes the idea was not meaty enough - and I was NOT interested in magnifying or adding on to it. Or, for some other reason while the idea was big enough, I couldn't amplify. What did happen in one instance with such a lyric, was this: the original idea was that of a woman's pain and longing (which was absolutely palpable to me, after seeing a certain documentary). I wanted to tell her story. But I could not communicate what I felt. Somehow I ended up writing instead a completely different story and the only thing left of the original idea was "pain and longing". Re: #3 - that's a toughie when combined w/ 1 & 2. I would advise keeping your edited solid lines. A couple options spring to mind. One being to consider yourself a storyteller (maybe you have already done this? I hadn't really, until Last Train). I found that took a lot of pressure off, to finish the idea. It is true, the lyric ended up going somewhere I hadn't intended, and maybe didn't even want, but the more I could consider myself more as reporting or as a detached sort of recorder, the more options opened up for me as to finishing the lyric. And I was able to quickly pare down those options, once they revealed themselves. As far as getting caught in editing loop before the idea is down...either you have finished the idea (seriously) and need the beginning, middle, end to fatten it so the listener can glean SOME kind of completed picture - or it just stands alone, to be either put with some other gem verse someday, or not. That's my opinion anyway. Or - maybe putting it down for awhile, do something different and out of your routine and life, to help get you dreaming or whatever it's called, thinking in a different way, letting go somehow. I fear this is no help at all ~ but Cheers anyway. Donna

Wanna collaborate? lol I shall reply later, when able. Very good topic!

Got a new axe today! It's a Seagull acoustic electric, spruce top, hard case.

OK - that link looks good and another overview to my Songstuff eq/freq. charts. Cool.

Tom, that makes sense (verb spilling side to side uopn mixdown)....I'll just be needing to mess around a bit and report back. Mr. P, I remember the Phil Spector guidelines - start out 12:00 and pan out from there if needed - to hopefully avoid any holes. I'll check the freq. link, t/y.

Prometheus, thanks for chiming in! You know I'll save/retain what you've just said about the low string 84 htz and all. Hey, do you know of a link that lists the instruments and all that to their frequencies? I'm a bit muddled right now and not able to search it out for myself...

Hey Tom, That is a very good question. Which makes me stop and ask myself. * Yes, I want them to sound independent. BUT, I also think, owing to the differences in guitar parts, it might warrant differentiation in sound itself. One guitar is a bit dreamy, with suspended notes and more ring, while the other is grounded both in triad notes being emphasized and anchoring kind of rhythym. "A clean split" sounds like too much of a degree, but maybe it wouldn't be. In any case, I welcome your suggestions, because even if they don't apply in this case, I'm sure they will in another.

Tom~ It's totally OK. Donna (aka the artist who's posted one song in 13 months)

No worries! I am grateful for your help. Yes, I am using two mics each time I record a guitar part. And no guitar amp - it's a straight acoustic. Possibly anticipating your next question, the last time I recorded guitar I used two "Nady" DM-70's - the info says "dynamic, neodymium cartridge, unidirectional cardoid" (is that a condenscer mic?) It's sold as a drum mic and was hot as pistons when placed on the toms, and great sound I thought! Some good soul gave it to me. Otherwise I use an SM58 or 57 can never remember, and a condenscer mic. One mic placed in front of me, off to the left, aimed at about 4th fret. That's more so I won't bump it when playing. One mic, almost straight in front, aimed off to the right of soundhole. I've done it other ways (to the bridge and 12th fret -maybe didn't mess w/ trims and etc; enough).

ATom, I guess I have "track eq" then?