Creative Writing

[McnaughtonPark]

And that’s it – 32 bars – AABA.

It’s a short-hand term for a basic standard song form.

Many would argue that it is the standard song form.

Questions: How then is the hook used a a refrain and presented most effectively? Opening line of each A 8 bars (You really don't call them verses?) or last line? Is it presented in the B at all? So, then, is the normal way of referring to AABA not verse chorus? Does the B ever repeat? Is A=8, A=8, B=8, A=8 strictly adhered to?

From reading other books about lyric writing, Verse, Chorus, Bridge are commonly used terms to identify sections and purpose of the section. So much so that one is almost lead to believe that V,C,V,C,B,C is the standard. It's written all over the place so someone like me, just getting started, believes that. AABA is referred to as the ultimate song form.

In writing lyrics as a beginner, I find using V,C,.... an easier way to bring out the hook, but I now think it's because I've read more on the structure that I am more familiar with it.

I don't wish to bleed thru to the chorus/refrain for the sake of keeping the common language for now.

[Mazrocon]

I use the verse, chorus and bridge terms so most people know what i'm talking about. Like steve once said "music should be taken as an art and not a science". I don't use the original technical terms cuz most people undestand what a verse and chorus are. I agree that spelling is important and people take more seriously but I don't think it's the first thing people look out for when they are reading a lyric. If that's the first thing they look for it seems as though that's the most vital part of the song, which it's not.

[Steve]

The difference may be that amongst all the lyric and song writers here gathered. There is only one professional. The rest of us are amatuers and hobby writers. I have been enlightened by the wisdom of Lazz. I am always keen to learn from somebody more experienced than I (In any field) That doesn't mean that I am entertaining the thought that my writing habits will change! I have no illusions that I will ever become a songwriter of any renoun. But that doesn't mean I'll stop writing. The fact remains that if I post a lyric to this forum, I would gennerally write 'Verse Chorus' because that has become the standard terms of use in this and many other such places. I will continue to write the way I always have, which is like this.

As you can see, this is 'Empty Spaces'

This is how I write. I place neither marker header to delineate my 'Verses' and 'Chorus'. I use the tab. Unfortunately, when I copy and paste into this forum, the text becomes justified left, rendering my clearly defined sections useless! As can be seen here.

My Lyrics.

What I would say to all here is this. Lazz is an accomplished and talented songwriter. he works with exceptionally talented musicians, singers, songwriters and artists. His mutterings are to be taken seriously. If you have ambitions to be a serious songwriter. Take the job seriously! For that is what it is. A job! And like any other job. If you want to get ahead, learn to do the job to the best of your ability! If, like me, you have no such ambitions and write because you enjoy writing, then you can afford to be slovenly. like me!

Interesting line this thread has taken!

[McnaughtonPark]

Interesting line this thread has taken!

[FinnArild]

(I think Finn’s example might be though – but if it isn’t, and it describes instead the sequence of different sections, then it’s going to involve a mountainous accordion of manuscript and a bundle of unhappy players madly turning yards of pages…. I can just picture it now.)

Nope - that's the different sections in the opening of my record - but - this is progressive rock and is supposed to have many themes - besides, it is more like 3 seperate songs mixed together. All of them have at least 4 different sections, though - so it becomes quite complex - but except from drums and grand piano, I play it all myself - so no unhappy players.

That example was more of a joke anyway - for a more proper example, I can use "Excess" as an example. Links to it are:

http://forums.songstuff.com/index.php?showtopic=10360 (music)

http://forums.songstuff.com/index.php?showtopic=9748 (lyrics)

That song is a BAABAAB - where B is the refrain, and A is the verse

Using letters for putting together parts of the songs is even a part of the software in my DAW: Cubase. There I can define the different sections by letter, and put together different combinations. Very neat.

[Lazz]

Questions:

These are the impossible questions – answers depend upon art and intention.

How then is the hook used as a refrain and presented most effectively?

Impossible to answer cold

The hook (and title for that matter) is generally quite naturally involved with the refrain.

Makes sense really, doesn’t it ? The hookiness of the hook can be enhanced by repetition, the same quality that animates a refrain, as well as by its placement. And I believe that in practice the effectiveness of placement is determined by the shape of melodic rhythm going on.

Opening line of each A 8 bars or last line?

There are no prescriptive rules for this – it could be either, it could be neither, it could even be both.

There are lyrics of mine somewhere on this site for an AABA song called ‘Never Enough’. I use the title/hook in first line, second line, and last line of each A section. (Nothing like driving the message home, is there.)

Not all songs have a refrain, though – it’s certainly not an essential requirement.

Is it presented in the B at all?

It can be, if you want.

Again, the answer depends upon art and intention.

‘It’s A Jungle Out There’ uses an AAB form made of 16-bar sections, totaling 48-bars altogether, in which the refrain is used in the last four bars of each of them.

‘Things Turn Out That Way’ is a 32-bar AABA in which the refrain is contained in the last 2 bars of each 8-bar section.

(You really don't call them verses?)

No I don’t. I have come to learn and understand that when you guys say ‘verse’ it’s going to involve something approximating a ‘stanza’ of poetry. But no – a verse (to me and everyone else here on planet Lazz) means something else entirely.

So, then, is the normal way of referring to AABA not verse chorus?

No – because the term ‘chorus’ communicates something else too in our language.

Everybody here understands what AABA means

Does the B ever repeat?

Yes. Regularly.

In ‘Things Turn Out That Way’, the general arrangement is first for the song to be sung AABA – it’s that complete AABA structure, by the way, which is known in our language as a ‘chorus’ – after which it’s perfectly normal practice to ‘play another chorus’ in which an instrumental solo happens during the next AA bit until the vocal comes back in at B (‘take it to the bridge’) before heading out at the final A and Coda. So that’s another bit of shared language among us lot – “32-bar AABA, 2 choruses”.

In ‘It’s A Jungle Out There’, the normal arrangement is for the lyric to have the first AAB, and the solo to have the next chorus of AAB, after which the vocals to take the final AAB out to the Coda. That’s three choruses in total, But you can really carve it up anyway you want as long as it works well.

Sometimes, if the players get pretty excitable and the situation warrants, we might encourage 2 soloists to take a chorus each or give the first soloist AA and the second BA, at which point I am liable to make a clear band-direction to ‘take it to the bridge’, in which case they will all quite naturally hit the second ending of A so we can cut straight to B and tie it up as neatly as possible.

Is A=8, A=8, B=8, A=8 strictly adhered to?

No. It doesn’t have to be.

Sections can be any bar length you choose.

AnneC frequently uses a different bar length for a closing A section, for example.

But 32-bars is the most normal.

From reading other books about lyric writing, Verse, Chorus, Bridge are commonly used terms to identify sections and purpose of the section. So much so that one is almost lead to believe that V,C,V,C,B,C is the standard. It's written all over the place so someone like me, just getting started, believes that.

Yeah, I know.

Pretty frustrating how simple misunderstandings get perpetuated like a virus.

And the reason why this terminological topic exercises me as much as it does.

My guess is it all happened because lots of people started writing songs and needing to communicate about them without knowing that a specialist musical language with a long history already existed. That means we ended up with two languages – one is the layman’s language – the language of what Steve calls amateurs and hobby writers – what Kenny Chaffin calls ‘common usage’ – and the other is the established regular orthodox musical language used by us other lot.

The difference here is that we…. us lot… have to find ways to become familiar with and make sense of the ambiguous ‘common usage’ adopted by you lot – while you lot get away with operating in proudly isolated ignorance of what is regarded as ‘common usage’ amongst us lot.

Us lot have to learn two languages but you lot obstinately accept only the more inferior amateur one.

Now, none of that is inherently or automatically a problem provided the results stand up. But the one thing I find most profoundly disturbing is that this amateur ‘common usage’ is symptomatic of a general craft ignorance which means there are people out there posing as songwriters who have obviously avoided any study of the history and traditions of their chosen area of creative endeavour. Smells like arrogance to me. And certainly not something I have found in any other area of arts or craft: painters know about painting; actors know about theatre; athletes know about their sport ; writers know about literature; screenwriters know about film.

Only in the faddish spectrum of alleged songwriting are folk allowed – even encouraged – to think they have a right to claim an integrity devoid of engagement with or understanding of the tradition.

That bugs me.

And it’s why I introduced the names of Johnny Mercer, Sammy Cahn, Jimmy Van Heusen, Billy Strayhorn and Fran Landesman – in the hope that somebody might be curious enough to check out some of the old heavyweight masters – for me, quite frankly, I can’t possibly imagine a serious songwriter who doesn’t know and revere these guys alongside the more contemporary country pop and rock writers.

But you can use any language you want.

Honestly – it doesn’t really matter.

Just make sure to become hip to all that lovely tradition.

Edited March 22, 2008 by Lazz

[KennyChaffin]

The important thing being to write good songs regardless of terminology and get the big bucks and the girls!

KAC

[Steve]

The important thing being to write good songs regardless of terminology and get the big bucks and the girls!

KAC

Sounds good.

[Steve]

The difference here is that we…. us lot… have to find ways to become familiar with and make sense of the ambiguous ‘common usage’ adopted by you lot – while you lot get away with operating in proudly isolated ignorance of what is regarded as ‘common usage’ amongst us lot.

Us lot have to learn two languages but you lot obstinately accept only the more inferior amateur one.

You're an old pro aren't you.

[Mazrocon]

I didn't expect this thread to have so many comments and then turned into something really different and off topic. All I was saying that I like creatively written lyrics, we didn't really have to go into great detail about where the terms verse, chorus etc. came from. Can't we all just enjoy writing and listening to music with out getting too far ahead of ourselves that we start to become scientist's rather then artist's. IMO of coarse, it takes the fun out of writing if you think so logically about it. Writing is suppost to be fun and artistic not a science project. Well I guess I don't have much more to say. It's not that I don't like taking advice or anything, I like ur ideas and they really helped me improve I'm just saying aslong as were having fun and were moving up then that should be just fine

[McnaughtonPark]

In ‘Things Turn Out That Way’, the general arrangement is first for the song to be sung AABA – it’s that complete AABA structure, by the way, which is known in our language as a ‘chorus’ – after which it’s perfectly normal practice to ‘play another chorus’ in which an instrumental solo happens during the next AA bit until the vocal comes back in at B (‘take it to the bridge’) before heading out at the final A and Coda. So that’s another bit of shared language among us lot – “32-bar AABA, 2 choruses”.

When I read this I whispered to myself, "Oh f*ck, so that's how that shit gets done." You can't read that in the books or internet articles, thank you for the thought out and respective, respected, answers.

Without trying to stick my nose too far up anyones arse, I was reminded of something I read many years ago. I don't remember who said it, I can't quote it verbatum

He who doesn't know and knows that he doesn't know

Is ignorant, teach him

He who doesn't know and thinks that he knows

Is a fool, shun him

He who knows, but knows not that he knows

Is lost, guide him

He who knows and knows that he knows

Is wise, follow him.

Perhaps it was from Tao, or the I-Ching, I don't quite remember, but I have not been ashamed of ignorance since, and have tried, beyond hope or much success, to not be the fool.

[KennyChaffin]

I didn't expect this thread to have so many comments and then turned into something really different and off topic. All I was saying that I like creatively written lyrics, we didn't really have to go into great detail about where the terms verse, chorus etc. came from. Can't we all just enjoy writing and listening to music with out getting too far ahead of ourselves that we start to become scientist's rather then artist's. IMO of coarse, it takes the fun out of writing if you think so logically about it. Writing is suppost to be fun and artistic not a science project. Well I guess I don't have much more to say. It's not that I don't like taking advice or anything, I like ur ideas and they really helped me improve I'm just saying aslong as were having fun and were moving up then that should be just fine

Agreed, if you analyze it too much you can kill it, but still important to know the terrain if you want to do something worthwhile. Lazz and I got into it on Steve's recent thread (as you might have gathered from the comment above) wrt some of the terms you mention in the initial post. As you may or may not know I've come back to songwriting in the last few months after a brief fling with it some 10 years ago (been writing poetry mostly in the mean time, as well as doing software engineering to keep food in the dog's bowl) and have been studying, reading, learning, absorbing all I can fully intent on making a serious go of it (not for money!). I'm going to post my off-the-top-of my head summary wrt lyric and songwriting that I posted in response to a similar question on another forum:

--------------------------

Okay, here we go, I'm gonna try to regurgitate what I've been studying (mostly lyric writing) for the past few months

Start with an interesting and universal idea.

Start with a title then summarize in a sentence what that title means

Write in prose what you want to say in the first verse, same for verse 2 etc.

Write the Chorus - it should contain the title most likely as the first or last line

the chorus should summarize the message of the song, it should also (if possible) be tense and point of view neutral

so that the verses can "color" it.

Once you have the chorus written write the verses.

Once it's all written re-write it to make it better and then do that again a few times.

Know and follow the standard song forms (at least in the beginning) - AAA, VCVC, AABA etc. etc.

Use a rhyme scheme. If you use ABAB in Verse 1 use the same in Verse 2

Keep it simple but try not to use sing-song (simple) rhymes

The words should read like a normal sentence - do not invert word order for the sake of rhyme

The chorus words and music should be the same each time it is used.

As someone said above the title should be in the song. :Psmile.gif

Make sure the second verse builds on what is started in the first verse. (i.e. don't just say the same thing a different way, give us some new information.

Maintain a consistent tone through the song. If the first verse is angry, maintain it in the second verse.

The Chorus should contrast musically and lyrically from the verses.

A bridge is a one-time section that varies lyrically and musically from the other sections.

Leave room for the singer (and listener) to breath. (rests, pauses, silence is important)

The feeling of the music should match the feeling of the song (happy lyrics = happy music, sad lyrics = sad music) this is called prosody.

I'm sure I've forgotten a million things, but that's some good ones.

--------------------------

Hope this is useful.

KAC

[Steve]

Interesting. I don't agree with some of it. i.e.

The words should read like a normal sentence - do not invert word order for the sake of rhyme:

Lots of folk music that would have trouble with that premise. ! And I think it's ok to invert word order. As I've done myself in the recent 'Empty Spaces' lyric.

The chorus words and music should be the same each time it is used.

Don't agree with that at all! (What's a chorus?)

But not a bad set of guidelines to run by!

[KennyChaffin]

Interesting. I don't agree with some of it. i.e.

The words should read like a normal sentence - do not invert word order for the sake of rhyme:

Lots of folk music that would have trouble with that premise. ! And I think it's ok to invert word order. As I've done myself in the recent 'Empty Spaces' lyric.

The chorus words and music should be the same each time it is used.

Don't agree with that at all! (What's a chorus?)

But not a bad set of guidelines to run by!

Not meant to be rules at all (as there aren't any in any creative endeavor ) more like guidelines.

And if you start that chorus (isn't it really just a vocal group?) krap again, I WILL take you out to the woodshed and whip yer behind.

KAC

[Steve]

Not meant to be rules at all (as there aren't any in any creative endeavor ) more like guidelines.

And if you start that chorus (isn't it really just a vocal group?) krap again, I WILL take you out to the woodshed and whip yer behind.

KAC

[Lazz]

You're an old pro aren't you.

A girl has to turn a buck any way she can.

[Mazrocon]

A girl has to turn a buck any way she can.

Your a girl?? I guess I shouldn't assume, by your picture I automatically thought that was a picture of you Well my bad...

~TIMOTHY~

[Lazz]

I use the verse, chorus and bridge terms so most people know what i'm talking about.

Quite right, too.

It's whatever works best.

I mutated to a different style only because my circumstances became different.

First

If I ever get a finished lyric ready to hand off to one of the music guys. I have the feeling that labelling my sections might somehow pre-determine or prejudice their take on the possibilities of interpreting it musically in some way. I like to think they should be free to to respond to what I have written without undue influence or cues. That may be a complete fallacy, by the way - the traditional structures and shapes I favour are probably pretty transparent to collaborators - I'll have to ask 'em sometime and find out - I just have the illusion it's a more productive choice for a better result. But that's mainly why I personally don't use those terms at writing and delivery point.

Second

If I ever get lucky enough to have a project reach as far as the studio - we know the budget is always going to be tight and we have to be as efficient as we can. The solution from my end for achieving a quick in-and-out is to use experienced professionals who can pull off what's needed in one or two takes with no unnecessary pressure. If everyone is on the same team, aiming for the same goal without ego, and can have fun doing their job, then you always get a better result, I reckon. Using verse, chorus and bridge terms in ways so they know what I'm talking about is useful, functional and productive.

Third

I know I can use thosee same terms and meanings in the same circumstances anywhere in the world and be understood and get the same result.

But whatever works best at the time is the right choice.

Edited March 24, 2008 by Lazz