Creative Writing

[Mazrocon]

I've been listening to music for all my life, but it wasn't until I was 10 (or 11) I started writing lyrics and reading lyrics, as I kept on reading lyrics I found out so many creative ways people write. The most common way is Verse, Chorus, Verse, Chorus, Bridge, Chorus. For a little bit I thought that was the only way of writing, then I read more lyrics and then I realized that there's no limit and barely any rules or guidelines in songwriting. Songs like Highway Man and The Man In Black (both by johnny cash) don't even have a chorus. Songs like Hands Held High and Valentines Day (both by linkin park) have a chorus but only play's once and at the end, and many songs don't even have to rhyme to flow excently!! Anyways my point is that song writing is and music is one of the most creative things you can do!! Also if you want to discuss any new and/or creative ways that you like to wright songs, discuss them here.

[ramadhaniyanto]

hey maz,

yes, i agree too that the most common is the verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge-chorus pattern, especially during the glory days of boybands back in the mid 90's . but since rock bands, alternative, indie, and all their derivatives (shoegaze, triphop, etc), there has been a constant growth of variety in how each artist writes their lyrics. of course the common pattern still works, i still feel most comfortable with that pattern when i'm writing lyrics, but i'm currently exercising writing in a different way (which is partially inspired by you! so, thanks for the inspiration)

i like how (some) emo bands write their lyrics, it's not your usual sweet-talk, but rather more personal and more diversity in the words they use; country singers are also great lyricists, down to earth and real; i'm not too fond of hip-hop though, since their lyrics are shallow and repetitive imo, and tend to just show off their bling; jazz is cool too, for those late night sessions

i think it's true that a lyricist should have a rhyme dictionary and an ordinary one, to find rhymes and synonyms for finding and using better words. i've got one myself and it's really useful.

[john]

Hey

You're correct that there are no real rules as such, but there are guidelines, and for some genres some of those guidelines need to be followed or the song will stray out of genre. If that makes sense.

Same goes for standard song forms.

Cheers

John

[Mazrocon]

hey maz,

yes, i agree too that the most common is the verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge-chorus pattern, especially during the glory days of boybands back in the mid 90's . but since rock bands, alternative, indie, and all their derivatives (shoegaze, triphop, etc), there has been a constant growth of variety in how each artist writes their lyrics. of course the common pattern still works, i still feel most comfortable with that pattern when i'm writing lyrics, but i'm currently exercising writing in a different way (which is partially inspired by you! so, thanks for the inspiration)

i like how (some) emo bands write their lyrics, it's not your usual sweet-talk, but rather more personal and more diversity in the words they use; country singers are also great lyricists, down to earth and real; i'm not too fond of hip-hop though, since their lyrics are shallow and repetitive imo, and tend to just show off their bling; jazz is cool too, for those late night sessions

i think it's true that a lyricist should have a rhyme dictionary and an ordinary one, to find rhymes and synonyms for finding and using better words. i've got one myself and it's really useful.

Wow that's a step forward! I don't think I ever inspired anyone I agree most hip-hop is repetitive, but not all of it's bad. There are some hip-hop rap songs that are really deep, meaningful and stand out music wise. Like Happy Birthday by Flipsyde, Where'd You Go by Fort Minor and Hands Held High by Linkin Park. I like My Chemical Romance (most people don't consider them emo, but it's quite obvious they are). I try to not do the same thing everytime in my lyrics, so I try something a lil bit different each time. The only thing I never done (don't think ever will) is use cussing in songs, cause I think that cussing seems unessary. I thought jazz was just music, no singing? I could be wrong though Country is, okay. Not really my type of music cause most country is kind of simplistic and they always make me feel crummy and ordinary. But that's just me, yeah I can't stand boy bands, worst then hip hop and too pretty boyish. Anyways... Peace out!

~TIMTOHY~

[Mazrocon]

Hey

You're correct that there are no real rules as such, but there are guidelines, and for some genres some of those guidelines need to be followed or the song will stray out of genre. If that makes sense.

Same goes for standard song forms.

Cheers

John

Yeah sorry that's what I meant, there are guidelines but no real rules. I feel stupid that I misspelled write

~TIMOTHY~

[McnaughtonPark]

A Nashville songwriter told me there are no rules, only rules of thumb. Meaning, some things just need to be adhered to in order to get your song published. You can go through songs that made the charts and pull out common aspects of each one, categorize them, and write your next lyric incorporating all the best, but if the song doesn't fly....well, you write another.

Timothy, I think that's the part I like best. The writing itself. Pulling out words and putting them down to a melody. I like toying with finding meaning in sentences, and interesting rhymes. Lyrics are a beautiful weaving in and through everyday experiences in a way that others can relate to.

The hidden, cryptic, lyrics can have their day and do, by more popular bands after they are already noticed and published but I'll bet there was a simple catchy tune that got them there to begin with.

That 2 cents cost me a dollar.

MP

[Alistair]

hey maz,

yes, i agree too that the most common is the verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge-chorus pattern, especially during the glory days of boybands back in the mid 90's . but since rock bands, alternative, indie, and all their derivatives (shoegaze, triphop, etc), there has been a constant growth of variety in how each artist writes their lyrics. of course the common pattern still works, i still feel most comfortable with that pattern when i'm writing lyrics, but i'm currently exercising writing in a different way (which is partially inspired by you! so, thanks for the inspiration)

You are obviously a lot younger than me! It was not in the mid 90s that the mould of verse chorus etc was broken, Every generation could give an example of pushing this particular envelope but it was perhaps the 50s where this rule became best -established and then the hippies and prog rockers in the later 60s and early seventies broke it. On the other hand so did blues and folk long before so perhaps twas ever thus. (This is bait for Lazz to stick his oar in,... I mean enlighten us with his many years of experience!)

[Sunfighter]

The most common way is Verse, Chorus, Verse, Chorus, Bridge, Chorus. .

Er yes, guilty as charged. I have only recently started to write songs and I'm finding it a bit difficult to break out of this tried and tested song structure.

[Mazrocon]

Er yes, guilty as charged. I have only recently started to write songs and I'm finding it a bit difficult to break out of this tried and tested song structure.

Well it's not nesserarily a bad thing it's just what most everyone does =P If you have the option to make it better and mix it up a lil bit then i'd say go for it But if you can't it's perfectly fine you can still make a great song

[Mazrocon]

Timothy, I think that's the part I like best. The writing itself. Pulling out words and putting them down to a melody. I like toying with finding meaning in sentences, and interesting rhymes. Lyrics are a beautiful weaving in and through everyday experiences in a way that others can relate to.

That is exactly what I like to do!! You can do whatever you want with songwriting and put amazing imagery into yourself and other's heads aswell as putting in a few deep/funny metaphors and analogies. You can make writing songs a wild journey and once your finished you'll see/hear all the people admire it. Then you can look back and say "WOW... or laugh about it".

[KennyChaffin]

You are obviously a lot younger than me! It was not in the mid 90s that the mould of verse chorus etc was broken, Every generation could give an example of pushing this particular envelope but it was perhaps the 50s where this rule became best -established and then the hippies and prog rockers in the later 60s and early seventies broke it. On the other hand so did blues and folk long before so perhaps twas ever thus. (This is bait for Lazz to stick his oar in,... I mean enlighten us with his many years of experience!)

Agreed, I mean if you REALLY wanna go back, think about the ancient music and forms and Bach pretty much creating the tempered musical scale we use. The forms of classical (and choir) music, wandering troubadour's carrying the news around, then of course everything went to hell with top 40 radio, corporate rock and playlists.

Through it all though the music, the art has survived regardless of form or style or genre. It seems a very basic need of humanity to create music and song and it's fascinating to be a part of.

KAC

[Lazz]

You are obviously a lot younger than me! It was not in the mid 90s that the mould of verse chorus etc was broken, Every generation could give an example of pushing this particular envelope but it was perhaps the 50s where this rule became best -established and then the hippies and prog rockers in the later 60s and early seventies broke it. On the other hand so did blues and folk long before so perhaps twas ever thus. (This is bait for Lazz to stick his oar in,... I mean enlighten us with his many years of experience!)

Oh, alright then.

If only I really understood what is being said here....

"The most common way is Verse, Chorus, Verse, Chorus, Bridge, Chorus. "

I dunno what that means at all.

When I take a look across the songs in my pad - a mixture of originals and classic standards by a spread of historically important writers - they pretty much all follow the regular standard song forms (with a couple of perverse exceptions) but none of 'em appear to fit this description of 'Verse, Chorus, Verse, Chorus, Bridge, Chorus'. Maybe I live on a different planet and hear different stuff. I have never listened to Flipsyde, Fort Minor, Linkin Park, or My Chemical Romance, for instance - 'though I have at least heard of the last two. Instead, I still study, learn from, and am indebted to, all those truly great writers like Johnny Mercer, Sammy Cahn, Jimmy Van Heusen, Billy Strayhorn and a bundle of other usual suspects on up to Tommy Wolf and Fran Landesman. And certainly the most common structure within my own limited experience is that old favourite 32-bar AABA shape.

Wow - that was very unhelpful and unenlightening, wasn't it ?

[Steve]

Wow - that was very unhelpful and unenlightening, wasn't it ?

Yes. You're grounded.

[Mazrocon]

Oh, alright then.

If only I really understood what is being said here....

"The most common way is Verse, Chorus, Verse, Chorus, Bridge, Chorus. "

I dunno what that means at all.

When I take a look across the songs in my pad - a mixture of originals and classic standards by a spread of historically important writers - they pretty much all follow the regular standard song forms (with a couple of perverse exceptions) but none of 'em appear to fit this description of 'Verse, Chorus, Verse, Chorus, Bridge, Chorus'. Maybe I live on a different planet and hear different stuff. I have never listened to Flipsyde, Fort Minor, Linkin Park, or My Chemical Romance, for instance - 'though I have at least heard of the last two. Instead, I still study, learn from, and am indebted to, all those truly great writers like Johnny Mercer, Sammy Cahn, Jimmy Van Heusen, Billy Strayhorn and a bundle of other usual suspects on up to Tommy Wolf and Fran Landesman. And certainly the most common structure within my own limited experience is that old favourite 32-bar AABA shape.

Wow - that was very unhelpful and unenlightening, wasn't it ?

Well everyone likes different types of music and styles, and some don't even like music at all!! I have never heard of Johnny Mercer, Sammy Cahn, Jimmy Van Heusen, Billy Strayhorn either Your probably older then me, but I could be wrong. Well if your born in the 70s you tend to like 70s music. If your born in the 80s you tend to like 80s music etc. But everyone is different, no genre or style of music is bad in my opinion (except for polka) most of them have their own feel to them and how they make you feel. Cause I like music so much i'm starting to save up for a variety of instruments and learn them! Like the harp, marimba, bongo, ocarina etc.

~TIMOTHY~

[Lazz]

I have never heard of Johnny Mercer, Sammy Cahn, Jimmy Van Heusen, Billy Strayhorn either

That's a shame.

I didn't really hold out much hope that you had heard of them - but I personally think every song-writer worth his/her salt should know about the history of their craft and has a duty to acquaint themselves with the seminal figures - just like in any other creative discipline.

I agree that no style or genre is inherently bad (or good) per se, but I never suggested otherwise.

Then again, I can quite enjoy a good Polka - every music has a soul waiting to be discovered.

[AnneC]

Lazz, for what it's worth, I find that I too tend to write in the AABA form, or often an A-A-B-abbreviatedA form. For some reason it just seems to be a pleasant way for a song to progress. If I want to stretch things out a bit I'll do an AABABA but not very often.

[FinnArild]

... so I went through the breakdown of the first track on my next album - that would be a plain ABCBCDBCEFGEFHIJEFGEKLMLMLNOPONOQRSTK - if I simplify it somewhat ...

Well - I guess that's why it's called progrock ...

[Mazrocon]

Okay I have no idea what you guys are talking about. AABA form?? What's that mean, are you talking about rhyme scheme or something else?

No offense lazz but it was hard trying to figure out just exactly what you said. It could just be my bad grammar (probably is). Well this is just my opinion but I could never stand polka, the accordian is an annoying instrument and it's unessarily (I spelt that wrong) fast pace. Unless it's a parody or funny song I don't mind polka

I guess it's kind of hard to describe what a verse, chorus and bridge are but i'll try to give an example.

(VERSE)

In this farewell

There’s no blood

There’s no alibi

‘Cause I’ve drawn regret

From the truth

Of a thousand lies

(BUILD-UP)

So let mercy come

And wash away

What I’ve done

(CHORUS)

I'll face myself

To cross out what i’ve become

Erase myself

And let go of what i’ve done

(VERSE)

Put to rest

What you thought of me

While I clean this slate

With the hands of uncertainty

(BUILD-UP)

So let mercy come

And wash away

What I’ve done

(CHORUS)

I'll face myself

To cross out what i’ve become

Erase myself

And let go of what i’ve done

(BRIDGE)

For what I’ve done

I start again

And whatever pain may come

Today this ends

I’m forgiving what I’ve done!!!

(CHORUS)

I'll face myself

To cross out what i’ve become

Erase myself

And let go of what i’ve done

What I’ve done

Forgiving what I’ve done

The verse's kind of portray a story and the chorus is the main part of the song that's repeated through out the song. However the chorus doesn't have to have the same lyrics everytime, just musically has to be the same. The build-up is what tells you the chorus is about to come or like get's u warmed up for the chorus. The bridge is something else entirely, different musically and lyrically (usually) then the verse and chorus. Usually somewhat stronger or most powerful part in the song but wouldn't be as good if it was repeated. Anyways this proves my point again that the main pattern to songs are verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge, chorus.

Hope I helped and didn't just say random gibberish

~TIMOTHY~

[Lazz]

Okay I have no idea what you guys are talking about. AABA form?? What's that mean, are you talking about rhyme scheme or something else?

No.

It’s not a rhyming scheme, Maz.

(I think Finn’s example might be though – but if it isn’t, and it describes instead the sequence of different sections, then it’s going to involve a mountainous accordion of manuscript and a bundle of unhappy players madly turning yards of pages…. I can just picture it now.)

The traditional AABA structure is one of the basic food groups of popular song.

It is conventionally built out of 32 bars.

The first 8 bars are called ‘A’ and is probably the equivalent, I am guessing, to what you would call a ‘verse’. (I wouldn’t be calling it a verse, though. Not me. A ‘verse’ conventionally refers to something else entirely different.)

The second 8 bars repeat the first 8 bars except for the fact that the ending is different. (That’s because the harmonic movement at this point needs to turn-around somehow into the ‘middle-eight’ - which is generally going to be in a contrasting tonality – and so the second ending has to be a way of getting there.) Apart from that, it’s the same. So this, too, is called ‘A’.

This ‘middle-eight’ is another 8 bars called ‘B’. It links straight to the last 8 bar section and hence became known as ‘the Bridge’.)

The last 8 bars repeat the first 8 bars – so that is also called ‘A’.

And that’s it – 32 bars – AABA.

It’s a short-hand term for a basic standard song form.

Many would argue that it is the standard song form.

And I would venture to argue that this is in fact the most commonly used form and not this “verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge, chorus” idea at all.

So, basically, according to my own experience, I disagree with your opening premise.

(If probably not for reasons Alistair expected)

Hope I helped and didn't just say random gibberish

Thanks for the effort.

It sure helps me understand what it is you mean by your use of terms.

But in terms of my own professional practice, it would be really confusing and unhelpful if I were to start using terminology in your fashion. I’ve taken a look at some of these things people seem to be calling a ‘pre-chorus’ for instance (same as what you’re calling a ‘build-up’, I imagine, but hard to say exactly without the music) – John sent me some illustrative examples to help me understand the use of the term – and they appear to be in musical song terms really nothing more than regular harmonic movement into the next section – kinda like the second ending going into the bridge.

I guess it's kind of hard to describe what a verse, chorus and bridge are

Well, there’s something wrong with that, I reckon. Especially when there already exists a conventional musical language with long established meanings for these terms. Consequently, everybody I have ever worked with understands exactly what a verse, chorus and bridge are. There should be no problem. The problem exists only when people haven’t learned the language. And from my point of view, just like Steve and others suggested in a neighbouring thread that following traditional established conventions of spelling encourages people to be taken more seriously as lyricists, so does a proper understanding and familiarity with these already established musical terms in the song-writing language. It just makes for better communication.

Why re-invent the wheel ?

And why replace it with something less useful ?

Beats me.

[KennyChaffin]

Agree with the above, best to write in the form expected by those you are pitching your work to.

Best to know the standards before breaking them.

And always best to learn what others have already learned from trial and error rather than go through it all again individually.

KAC