Do you use a metronome?

[Ryan Halsey]

Im sure with automation you could give it that gradual change in tempo rather than a sudden jump, sounds very interesting indeed. Let me know when youve recorded it!

[JoeyHendrickson]

I never use click when I record my own songs.  But when I'm engineering tracks for others, I ask others to use a click.  Why?

Most of them are used to recording vocals and guitar separately.  Most clients expect it and think you're slacking if you don't suggest it. When editing a song, digging into production, etc. it's true that having a grid you can go by eliminates time and stress.  It also sets you up for more digital manipulation.  So, I ask clients to use click.
 

But for my own recordings, I usually record live with acoustic and vocals and keep recording until the take is perfect.  With a few years of practice, you get used to finding the feeling you need, go to that "place", and tap into your best performance in the studio.  For me, a click would mess up the mood.  It would take away the subtleties.  It would vanish the purities.  It would be incredibly difficult to follow when I'm trying with everything I am to express the stuff that needs to be felt intrinsically, for the music to become valuable to the listener.  For me, the intangible stuff is what makes music valuable.  Playing perfectly to click doesn't mean your song will make money.  In this way, rhythm is a very fluid thing that I believe should be harnessed, not completely confined to a BPM.  You'll know when you're off rhythm because you'll feel odd.  But if a performance doesn't feel odd, it was the right rhythm, whether or whether not it syncs to a steady tempo.

Edited December 8, 2013 by JoeyHendrickson

[Rudi]

 

 

 

 Seriously....if all you're going to end up with is a single instrument on the track, you're probably not going to utilize it for anything serious. What could one actually do with such a track? Not a whole lot. 

 

 

 

I disagree completely.

 

The most demanding music I play is solo guitar. Its probably more serious than anything else I do.

 

For me, songs are just a bit of fun by comparison.

 

Would you make this suggestion to a concert pianist?

[Rudi]

Hi Tom,

 

It looks as if it should be me appologising. I never intended to put you through all this soul searching my friend.

 

I get your point entirely and agree as well. All the while we are speaking of 98% of accompanied fare that is.

 

However, unaccompainied fingerpicked guitar instrumentals take an age to learn and perfect. So...

 a single instrument on the track, you're probably not going to utilize it for anything serious.

 

isnt correct.

 

This is my point. That there are important exceptions.

 

Once this is understood both ways (& I know it is) we are in agreement once more.

 

regards

 

Rudi

[TapperMike]

When I'm recording myself I'll generally do a two measure count in and then keep it up for the first four measures.

 

Up untill the rave of drum machines entered the market, timing was more elastic. Over the entire piece of the song as well as inherant within the measures as welI.

 

If you listen very long to Wes Mongomery or Red Garland you'll notice how they don't simply play notes in time of swing they swing hard with a bounce.

Bounce type timing is more often realized away from the constant chain of a metronome.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDSVbUI7abE

 

Bill Evans was a master of rhythmic displacement. Don't take my word for it Marian McPartland explore this to great depths.  Guys who caught "Bill Evans" time keeping sensibilites from him directly include Miles Davis and Wayne Shorter http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayne_Shorter_discography

 

Keith Richards is the timekeeper of the rolling stones he directs the rest of the band, not Charlie Watts.  Ever since Exile on Main Street Richards produces a delayed response off the beat to give it that "Swagger" which sets the Stones apart from their contemporaries.

 

There are a lot of "high energy" songs that aren't especially fast or have extreme note divisions.  This is often handled by playing ahead or infront of the beat. Some people can do this naturally alone, some require a band or very nervous sitialtion to create and still others have to force themselves into slowing down the metronome and trying to catch the beat before it happens.  And some people never fully realize the technique or principle.

 

There is a long standing tradition of learning to play by ear passed down through the gospel community in regards to "feeling" the rhythm. Which give the music a sense of pulse and vibrancy which would not be attainable being lock-strapped to a metromone.

 

Concepts such as Rubato which literally translates to stealing or Stealing time. Is not limited to classical performance. Jimmy Hendrix and John Mayer are but a few who use this sense of "free" time to displace the melody in a more "organic" way.

 

Bands from the classic rock era through today often still operate in "Band time" One will often hear songs start at one tempo change to another and then to a third or back again over the duration of the song. "Catchy" is an over used term. In order to get a record contract in days of old you had to have something "Catchy" Meaning catches the listeners ear immediately.  Having something uptempo at the begining is fine.  However if a song remained at that tempo what was originally catchy becomes trite before the first chorus.  As a result many a persistant songwriter would have a separate tempo for the intro to catch the ear then "settle" into something different as the song progressed.  Usually a chorus, a verse and the bridge where at slightly different tempo's the bridge being the slowest with a graduated rit/acc.  This is something that a band works out as a band not as an appendage to a metronome.  Quite often I think that people because they can record immediately think that means they have to record immediately rather then develop the concept of the song over time.

 

So in summary.  While metronomes do fulfill certain needs for developing technique they are not the end all of a musical journey. Of which is about personal expression not mechanical enslavement.  And so long as there are those who believe only one path is available they are better served by knowing about other options should they decide for themselves to travel that path.

[JosieRose]

I don't like to practice with a metronome, but if I notice that I really am speeding up then I will practice a song with one a couple of times.

[TapperMike]

Hi Josie,

 

I think this is the first post I've seen of yours. It's nice to meet you. I had a very big diatribe about your approach but I'll need to save it for later.

 

Tom is 100% correct about timing for his music. If you play the straight ahead rock anywhere close to his personal approach you can appreciate the dedication he offers to his craft.  I am a fan of his work.  All music isn't cut from the same cloth as much as we might like to believe.  Everyone can't be everything or play everything all at once.  Humans are not universal.  We choose our direction and then our direction shapes us into the musicians we are. I can appriciate his dedication because I've done the straight ahead rock thing and found many a musician with less then the commitment to make the most of who/what they are. 

 

Ralph Waldo Emerson

 

 

Make the most of yourself, for that is all there is of you.
 

[JosieRose]

Nice to meet you too! Just to clarify, I don't use a metronome in practice often, not even once a month. I sometimes have used one in instrumental pieces but I don't remember using one for singing. I'm sure I have at some point. (I really should have said tune rather than song!) When I'm teaching I sometimes use one.

[Prometheus]

I use a selected drum drum pattern, but sometimes the music will defeat any attempt to use a metronome. Anything with tempo changes or time signature changes will do that.

 

I have a solo instrumental with multiple temp & rhythm changes. Just as well it is unaccompanied!

 

That's not actually true.  You can program tempo and signature changes into the click track in any modern mutlitrack software.

[Rudi]

That's not actually true.  You can program tempo and signature changes into the click track in any modern mutlitrack software.

 

 

Is that so?

Perhaps what I use is not modern enough then. I'm using a Boss BR-1600.

 

Even if what you say was possible, it would only be of use if the musician could duplicate his performance exactly. Where rallentando changes occur, that is always going to be a problem.

[Guest The Quiet Man]

I think most of us here record to a drum track.  I used to do songs with Dave Houghton the Drummer with 

Joe Jacksons Band They are back together  at this time.

 

When we recorded songs in a studio Dave never used a metronome and no pros would , he used  to keep

the beat stable, sometimes at the end he would listen to playback and check that he had not slowed  down

by checking the last 8 bars with the first 8 bars and he was always within a beat or two of the count in.

 

A metronome can make you sound robotic,  so try to avoid it if you have a problem holding beat, by all means

get a pulse beat in your ear phones , but it's something to be avoided,  Take any Hit from The Beatles up to 

now and you will hear a slight variation from start to finish,   but I'm not talking about the  guys who write from 

electronic beats  from  synthesizers that is always spot on and matches the robotic sound of most of it.

Also the Stock Aitken and Waterman Pop from that awful period would build up most tracks from a Synth

if thats what turns you on do it but I cant stand that type of music myself. and who would listen to it today

(OnlyMusical Morons, )

 

All the Great Bands from the sixties to the eighties would shun a metronome as being something an

amature musician uses. 

[Guest The Quiet Man]

Further to the above,  if you are making a home demo it's dead easy to work out your digital drum pre sets

and then build your other tracks from there , i see nothing wrong with that .

 

But my piece was aimed at live playing  and recording a Master for Release . by  Professional Musicians.

 

As someone else has stated If your timing is bad I don't see what you can do about it , I would say just keep

your music as a hobby.  I have sacked one Drummer because of his constant speeding. 

 

But since that time I've always made sure my musicians have great timing. and most have . 

 

And as someone else has stated you can programme Digital Drum Machines to give you a slight slowing or speeding

if you want it.

 

Nothing wrong in practicing with a metronome as an individual , But I couldn't do it it's too robotic. and I've never needed it

 

As far as tuning a bass or a guitar  with a  tuner is a must for me because audience noise irritates me when I'm trying

to hear the note.  and not many of us have perfect pitch in any case.

[Cameron]

Hey dude, I think a click track is going to make your rhythm tracks a lot more tight regardless, however if you have a drum track recorded to a click that is effectively a click track on its own,

 

I think learning to play with a click track second nature would be the ideal set up for recording. (I can't play that well with a click either so I get what you mean 100% about losing the soul), but i know some people that they don't even think about the click they played with it. 

 

So I don't know maybe those people are a select few but for serious recordings I think playing to a click track is always better if at all possible. 

[TapperMike]

There are professionals who do work out with metronomes for recording and practice.  And there are professionals who don't. In an orchestral situation a conductor becomes the metronome.  

 

 

Having spent quite a number of years as both a session player and a live performer I can say when I was gigging 4 to 6 nights a week within a limited musica framework (style) I didn't need one.  However when I composed music for my band to play I would often work things out by recording the entire thing out by myself with a drum track.  As well when I explore genre's that I have less familiarity with I'll also use them.

 

Drummers like Steve Gadd do use metronomes.  He uses it to control his ability to put the hit on, before or after the beat.

Jazz musicians also use metronomes and are taught to at major learning institutes everywhere.

Larry Carlton often takes a three month break from playing guitar after coming off tour. He doesn't touch the instrument during that time.  When he returns to playing he goes back to the metronome to bring his chops back. 

 

In regards to tempo changes in a piece

 http://colorinmypiano.com/2010/09/03/rallentando-ritardando-whats-the-difference/

 

Sibelus offers this feature http://www.sibeliusforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=1979

 

 

Getting back to timing for a minute.  I'm a multi instrumentalist.  I play guitar, bass and synth.  In the electric/acoustic realm stringed instruments with a fixed bridge say a telecaster or les paul for example have a faster attack then an acoustic instrument or those with a floating bridge. When going from one to another the differences in timing are slight but noticable.  When going to an upright bass from a telecaster the differences in attach time are more recognizable and it takes a certain amount of adaption if you are going from one instrument to another.  In the electronic realm there is a wider disparity in attack to reaction based on the properties of the sound selected and the device used for the process.  The speed limit for midi is 1ms. Which is in a perfect universe going from one hardware keyboard to another. That is the top end.  The bottom end can be as much as slow as 200ms. when going from the original source (my fingers) to the output

Here is why I don't use 13pin (roland gr/gk type systems) though I have several.  I currently own a roland ready strat, Godin Freeway SA and Godin Multilac ACS SA.  I've had almost every incarnation of guitar to midi conversion from the 80's till the GrO9.  Inside the unit even the more current GR55 the internal delay time is about 30ms which is significant enough to break out the metronome and learn to play slightly ahead of the beat so when it finally comes out it's on the beat.  When going to a hardware (non computer) midi device it jumps up to 60ms.  60 is a far cry from 1ms. When taking that same midi signal and sending it though a usb to a computer the conversion process of midi to usb and then usb back to midi can leap excessively again requiring one to break out the metronome and get an even further jump on the beat.

 

Now,, when you are working with a daw hosted on a computer (yes even mac's) midi operates as interrupt. That means the midi signal comes along and tries to interuppt the processor to send the signal through the processing stage. If the computer is too occupied running other processes (even on multi-core) the midi signal has to wait before it can go thru the host and then the actual virtual instrument. Not to mention any post proccessing such as effects to be returned. Which can mean an irregular time for the signal to be processed. Even if you've done all your metronome work and have gained a sense of timing for the standalone sound, once the computer has to process all the computer functions and all the daw functions the timing can be even more significantly offset. This is why quantizers are so popular in daw's it allows for time correction after the fact to deal with the irregular timing due to the way the signal is processed.  It is completely unlike working with a hardware workstation.  This is why major studio's and touring artists use muse receptor. http://www.museresearch.com/community/artists.php  Because receptor does only one thing.  Handles plugins for significantly reduced latency and takes the pressure off the daw/main computer for recording.  I don't own receptor.  Even with a really fast computer I still have latency issues. If I only played one non computer instrument and played it every night at gigs it wouldn't be as much of a concern.  However I don't play one instrument. And sometimes it can be a spell between me picking up a specific instrument like a conventional electric bass. At which time I do need a metronome to bring my timing back up on that instrument so I'm not ahead or behind the beat.

 

As well There are professional musicians who do not practice even after 20 years of being together and it shows in thier performance.  The Who had a huge reunion after a long hiatus and because they didn't practice the first couple of concerts failed miserably.  Led Zepplin's Live Aid when they came back without practicing was also abismall. It took decades for Jimmy Page to get back to the levels he had back in the 70's.  Eric Clapton has stated publicly that he can't perform much of the music he made in the 80's because he's losing those abilities. 

 

Technology is technology and humans are humans. We are not a steady state of being. our abilities rise and fall and sometimes rise again. Some are content to do the same things we've always done but even that over the long haul does not mean we have low and high tides in our performance. We are not mp3 machines.  There are those who challenge themselves and rise and those who set forth challenges they can't rise to but still hold out hope for.  In my life I've seen talented young people wither through stanation. Late bloomers rise to the occassion and everything inbetween.

 

People get into playing a music for a variety of reasons. Whether it be that a parent wills the instrument onto the childs psyche, a wish for personal expression, a desire for positive attention and occassionally as a means of exploration.  These reasons can change overtime.  Initially I started taking on other instruments for both financial compensation and a sense of belonging in a group.  When everyone is a guitar player sometimes you can accomplish more by not being another guitar player.  People also write and perform music for different reasons.

 

Music has a place for the artisan, the craftsman and the explorer. To deny any one of these is to deny music itself. If you one has decided on which of these to be then it's not up to anyone else to deny them the opporitunity be it monetary or personal gain. And if as a consequence the music becomes part of the musical landscape then we are all enhanced by the experience it brings to us.

[MikeRobinson]

I find it handy to have a soft, mechanical metronome-beep "in there," so that I can at my pleasure either listen for it or ignore it.  Even if the drummer is thumping away and I'm basically trying to sing to that, I can also hear the common reference tone that I know the drummer is/was also listening to.

 

Injecting a very tiny amount of that tone into a track (if it doesn't have timing data otherwise included in the file), quiet enough to be reliably clipped-off along with the rest of the "noise," is also handy when lining-up the tracks in a DAW.

[justsoulin]

Wow, what an interesting insightful take on timing - thanks all for your thoughts.

[TapperMike]

I find it handy to have a soft, mechanical metronome-beep "in there," so that I can at my pleasure either listen for it or ignore it.  Even if the drummer is thumping away and I'm basically trying to sing to that, I can also hear the common reference tone that I know the drummer is/was also listening to.

 

Injecting a very tiny amount of that tone into a track (if it doesn't have timing data otherwise included in the file), quiet enough to be reliably clipped-off along with the rest of the "noise," is also handy when lining-up the tracks in a DAW.

 

I hate mechanical beeps. Especially if the beep is not in tune or even in key with what I'm doing. I find a simple soft kick, snare or side stick a lot more bearable.  I won't put it on all the beats.  It depends on the song but usually it's either One and Three or Two and four.

[Rudi]

Mike,

I have just re-read this, and also listened to the your link to Red Garland's 'Exactly Like You'.

 

I am still trying to hear what you mean in Bill Evans and Keith Richards. I know your right because I can feel it, but my ear is not good enough to identify it for myself. Your insight is staggering. I thought it was about time I told you so.

 

 

Bill Evans was a master of rhythmic displacement. Don't take my word for it Marian McPartland explore this to great depths.  Guys who caught "Bill Evans" time keeping sensibilites from him directly include Miles Davis and Wayne Shorter http://en.wikipedia....ter_discography

 

Keith Richards is the timekeeper of the rolling stones he directs the rest of the band, not Charlie Watts.  Ever since Exile on Main Street Richards produces a delayed response off the beat to give it that "Swagger" which sets the Stones apart from their contemporaries.

 

There are a lot of "high energy" songs that aren't especially fast or have extreme note divisions.  This is often handled by playing ahead or infront of the beat. Some people can do this naturally alone, some require a band or very nervous sitialtion to create and still others have to force themselves into slowing down the metronome and trying to catch the beat before it happens.  And some people never fully realize the technique or principle.

 

There is a long standing tradition of learning to play by ear passed down through the gospel community in regards to "feeling" the rhythm. Which give the music a sense of pulse and vibrancy which would not be attainable being lock-strapped to a metromone.

 

Concepts such as Rubato which literally translates to stealing or Stealing time. Is not limited to classical performance. Jimmy Hendrix and John Mayer are but a few who use this sense of "free" time to displace the melody in a more "organic" way.

 

[TapperMike]

It's that misicule slightly off the meter swoosh which richards pretty much stole from listening to Ry Cooder

 

Re Evans

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIfHtPwF8wY

 

It's a long interview At about 2:30 he gets into discussing working against the meter and then demonstrates it to full effect slightly there after.

 

A funny thing about timing and time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFzMjp3fQyk

 

Gypsy Jazz specifies that when you change strings you use a downward rest stroke to the next string.  This is regardless if you are going up or down the across the strings. It creates a sense of roughness as opposed to conventional alternate picking. A decending line is not quite as smooth locked in time as an ascending line.

 

Eric Johnson explains "bouncing" technique here - at about the 1:10 mark

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACH5Z_YPmVg

 

Bouncing not only creates a more organic feel to the tone it also is slightly off of the exact metronome placement. I've found that people who use more bounce in their technique/timing often end up being slightly (very slight) ahead of the beat in contrast with other musicians. This can give a certain push / energy to a piece without having to actually increase tempo or busy up the work.

[TapperMike]

Re Red Garland.

 

In retrospect I should have used Erroll Garner as an example of timing as his playing was more overt with timing distinctions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lM-77RvpJf0

 

Dick Hyman explains this at about 3:50 into it