Analog

[Donna]

Rocket: this is not a compliment to the man Prometheus spoke of?

Also: what is a bot? (Alistair won't tell me; if it's something too trashy to explain, I'll know by you gentlemen's silence).

[FinnArild]

I totally agree, but is was a funny read, don't think Donna's gonna learn much from those guys

A funny read was all I linked it up for too - wow - I'm glad we behave ourselves better here at Songstuff.

Edited October 8, 2005 by FinnArild

[john]

Hey Donna

You can use compression to treat a signal at any point in the recording process from recording to mixdown and mastering.

Cheers

John

[john]

Rocket: this is not a compliment to the man Prometheus spoke of?

Also: what is a bot? (Alistair won't tell me; if it's something too trashy to explain, I'll know by you gentlemen's silence).

bot - short for robot, in cyberspeak, specifically a program used by search engines, spammers and others to visit sites, get content, and follow links. Search engines use them for cataloging, spammers use them to use mailing page, get email addresses (a bot process known as harvesting), and generally cause mayhem i.e. DOS (Denial of service) attacks.

Cheers

John

[Prometheus]

Er, which guys? WHOM do I trust?

Prometheus,

Bless your heart for that offer.

I have nothing digital yet, have no idea where the jing$ will come from to get it, and know virtually nothing about any of this stuff. I just found myself here and now have impulsively enrolled in this little cyberschool as it were, to learn everything I couldn't for the past five babies or so.

Does the compressor only work with a signal being put in or recorded - not afterward, as in mixing?

I can't wait to get MP3'd! And I hope you listen to the trashy analog demo's (which I love)... If this happens to be at night after you've had a few, I can hope for a severe and thorough critique, which would give me joy eventually).

Donna, compression should be used with extreme caution at the recording stage, using much less than you will ultimately need, because you cannot undo what you do at the recording stage... Same with EQ... but at the mixing stage you can do and undo these things very easily and are far more free to experiment...

[BongStuff]

A funny read was all I linked it up for too - wow - I'm glad we behave ourselves better here at Songstuff.

Have to agree - can we update the link to something better? JP22 says

"Compress a clean sound? Uhh.... sorry to break it to you but for the most part you're almost completely defeating the purpose of using compression doing that."

Right. So we can only compress "DIRTY" sounds. Clean sounds defeat the purpose of compression?!

I didn't read any further.

Sorry to break to you JP22 but...

BS

[Prometheus]

Rocket: this is not a compliment to the man Prometheus spoke of?

Also: what is a bot? (Alistair won't tell me; if it's something too trashy to explain, I'll know by you gentlemen's silence).

No, by Rocket I was meaning the guy is a loose cannon... Sound Engineers always talk about levels to tape, tape just being a word for any recording device, and there is truth in this... Pro Tools is simply a virtual tape recorder, as is Cubase, Logic, whatever you happen to use... It's simply a way of describing whatever is sent to a recording device...

[Prometheus]

Er, which guys? WHOM do I trust?

Prometheus,

Bless your heart for that offer.

I have nothing digital yet, have no idea where the jing$ will come from to get it, and know virtually nothing about any of this stuff. I just found myself here and now have impulsively enrolled in this little cyberschool as it were, to learn everything I couldn't for the past five babies or so.

Does the compressor only work with a signal being put in or recorded - not afterward, as in mixing?

I can't wait to get MP3'd! And I hope you listen to the trashy analog demo's (which I love)... If this happens to be at night after you've had a few, I can hope for a severe and thorough critique, which would give me joy eventually).

I personally think that if possible, apart from maybe bass gutars which always sound better compressed, it is best done at the mixing stage, unless to stop clipping from happening and then as sparingly as possible, but it is one of those things that is not easily explained... the tendancy in the beginning is to over compress, and over do everything, but I found after a couple of years it all suddenly became clearer and clearer... I honestly believe that the most important thing is to buy a set of monitior speakers, because once you can clearly hear what is happening with your sound in an unforgiving way, it is much easier to hearr mistakes you are making...

[Donna]

That's good news, john... I think it's time to beg old friends to let me borrow a compressor. I'd love to play around with it and try mix after mix. I like to do that anyway. GREAT definition of a bot.

I will remember the caution you gave Prometheus. OK, now rocket makes sense.

Great suggestion (I cannot recall now who) about trying the mix on dif. speakers/phones/cheap one, too.

Steve, I also listen the next day. Rarely is it as good the next day as it was the day before. I just play it and play it as I go on about the day, too.

[Nightwolf]

Donna, compression should be used with extreme caution at the recording stage, using much less than you will ultimately need, because you cannot undo what you do at the recording stage... Same with EQ... but at the mixing stage you can do and undo these things very easily and are far more free to experiment...

Excellent advice there, any effect can be added later (I've even added Wah-Wah after recording), but they can't really be undone. Compressors for analog recording can be had pretty cheap, of course you get what you pay for, but if your strapped a guitar stompbox pedal will do the trick.

Rarely is it as good the next day as it was the day before

LOL, we all know about that one.

Here is a good article on compression written by our own Mr. Moxey (john) Click Me

Since we don't always hit a note the same way twice, sometimes harder/louder, sometimes softer/quieter a compressor helps us meet in the middle, while you do want dynamics, you can't have it all over the map. A compressor will allow you to raise the softer and lower the louder to make everything sound more even.

Hope that helps,

John Nightwolf

[Donna]

Half-way there man, already have one monitor speaker!

Thanks for the link, john nightwolf.

I am happy to hear the opinion about adding effects later, that's natural to me. Besides, there's too much other stuff I'm trying to figure out while recording. Like EQ!!

Do any of you use no effects at all (save compression)? I don't right now and I'm liking this. I think it helps to hone in better on performance and dynamics...or maybe it's my way of seeing glass half full because the technicals of recording are not my strong suit!! It's a way to get by, too, til the needed gear appears.

That's the way I used to work when my love affair w/ analog began. You know, two little tape recorders bouncing back and forth. Doing tapes like that got an anti-mix, but good playing/singing developed. Although, come to think of it, I was manipulating the sound back then...compression to me is turning away from the mic when the loud notes come.

There's always a tension I've had between making good tapes vs being able to play it live and better yet, un-electric. They're not mutually exclusive but I get worried when I have to patch a lot...even tho I barely ever sing live (much less play). I want to keep strength up in being able to execute that song all the way through and well.

So I want the song to be good with no or minimal effects, as well as with.

Babbling off topic over.

Edited October 9, 2005 by Donna

[Prometheus]

Half-way there man, already have one monitor speaker!

Thanks for the link, john nightwolf.

I am happy to hear the opinion about adding effects later, that's natural to me. Besides, there's too much other stuff I'm trying to figure out while recording. Like EQ!!

Do any of you use no effects at all (save compression)? I don't right now and I'm liking this. I think it helps to hone in better on performance and dynamics...or maybe it's my way of seeing glass half full because the technicals of recording are not my strong suit!! It's a way to get by, too, til the needed gear appears.

That's the way I used to work when my love affair w/ analog began. You know, two little tape recorders bouncing back and forth. Doing tapes like that got an anti-mix, but good playing/singing developed. Although, come to think of it, I was manipulating the sound back then...compression to me is turning away from the mic when the loud notes come.

There's always a tension I've had between making good tapes vs being able to play it live and better yet, un-electric. They're not mutually exclusive but I get worried when I have to patch a lot...even tho I barely ever sing live (much less play). I want to keep strength up in being able to execute that song all the way through and well.

So I want the song to be good with no or minimal effects, as well as with.

Babbling off topic over.

I think you've hit a nail on the head their... If you don't make a good recording, you are not going to get a good mix, and if you don't get a good mix, you are not going to get a good master... It's interesting that you should say that about the tape recorders, that is exactly how I first got interested in multitrack recording too... Very poor quality signals, but it was the first time I ever got to make music with a lot of layers to it... But yeah, the addage is that you can't polish a turd and turn it into a diamond. If you have a poorly done recording, you are at best going to achieve damage limitation at the editing and mixing stage, so it sounds to me like you're already thinking about all this the right way...

It seems to me from what you're saying that multitrack recordings with a lot of effects are something you are quite new too, and it is pretty daunting at first. But the first steps are always the hardest and it does come together more and more easily as time goes on. To answer your question, there are times when I've had days when everything has just went right and the artist has delivered a great performance and I've not had to add any effects at all to tracks. My recording room is about 75% anechoic due to coverings that I have put up on the walls and general clutter which absorbs and diffuses reflections, which right away improves the clarity of a recording vastly. They don't need to be expensive, There are plenty of substances you can buy cheaply that are great for absorbing or scattering sound. What I did for my walls is nailed up some of those foam mattresses that you can roll up for camping, because my maw and paw had a few spare ones (they are very avid hill walkers and have a lot of camping equipment).

[Prometheus]

Excellent advice there, any effect can be added later (I've even added Wah-Wah after recording), but they can't really be undone.

I actually need to do that, since my timing on the guitar is nowhere near good enough to add it in real time... I just don't have that multiple way coordination thing that drummers and pianinsts need at all...

[john]

Hey

The advice about not adding compression during recording is very true. You can, it's just better if you don't. In general it's better to avoid "processors" like EQ or compression or "effects" like reverb during recording. The closer to the original information you can capture during recording the better. After all if you change it during the recording process the original information is never captured.

One situation where this is commonly ignored is the when recording electric guitar and effects. This is often because the effect is integral to the way the guiatrist plays with sustain or echo etc. If the effect is not there the guitarist will not play the same. This is however just lazy engineering, or commonly because the guitarists effect unit won't be available during mixing.

To record the guitar without the effects simply treat the monitor signal place the guitar fx unit in the monitor path (before the speakers/headphones) That way the guitarist hears the sound he needs, while you get the original guitar signal. This allows a good level of flexibililty during mixing where you can reapply the effects fine tuned for the mix. Or apply completely different effects.

Cheers

John

[Prometheus]

Hey

The advice about not adding compression during recording is very true. You can, it's just better if you don't. In general it's better to avoid "processors" like EQ or compression or "effects" like reverb during recording. The closer to the original information you can capture during recording the better. After all if you change it during the recording process the original information is never captured.

One situation where this is commonly ignored is the when recording electric guitar and effects. This is often because the effect is integral to the way the guiatrist plays with sustain or echo etc. If the effect is not there the guitarist will not play the same. This is however just lazy engineering, or commonly because the guitarists effect unit won't be available during mixing.

To record the guitar without the effects simply treat the monitor signal place the guitar fx unit in the monitor path (before the speakers/headphones) That way the guitarist hears the sound he needs, while you get the original guitar signal. This allows a good level of flexibililty during mixing where you can reapply the effects fine tuned for the mix. Or apply completely different effects.

Cheers

John

I've got a guitarist that comes round here to record with an effects rack, and he refuses to apply the effects in the mix, even though it would be relatively easy to do... He prefers to get the sound he wants and then just record exactly what's there, against my advice I might add... I must admit we've had some great results and come up with some pretty unusual sounds, but he has been hoisted on his own petard a couple of times too, particularly where delay is concerned... On that score he goes with my way of thinking now, adding delay at the mixing stage, calculated mathematically...

One exception to the rule we've all spoke about of "no compression at the recording stage" I thought might be worth mentioning is in live recordings with massive dynamic changes, like perhaps choirs, who I've found often sing more exuberantly towards the end of certain songs. I think a stone wall limiter can be a great way to avoid clipping on peaks when the singing gets over exuberant, while keeping the general recording level well above the noise floor...

Edited October 9, 2005 by Prometheus

[john]

Hey

Totally agree. It's not rule, it's a guideline. Judicious use, when you know the trade offs (what it gives you, what it costs and when) then anything can be use. Sometmies this is because of limitations in your recording set up, sometimes because of the source for the recording. Sometimes time. :

Cheers

John

[Donna]

I think you've hit a nail on the head their... If you don't make a good recording, you are not going to get a good mix, and if you don't get a good mix, you are not going to get a good master... It's interesting that you should say that about the tape recorders, that is exactly how I first got interested in multitrack recording too... Very poor quality signals, but it was the first time I ever got to make music with a lot of layers to it... But yeah, the addage is that you can't polish a turd and turn it into a diamond. If you have a poorly done recording, you are at best going to achieve damage limitation at the editing and mixing stage, so it sounds to me like you're already thinking about all this the right way...

It seems to me from what you're saying that multitrack recordings with a lot of effects are something you are quite new too, and it is pretty daunting at first. But the first steps are always the hardest and it does come together more and more easily as time goes on. To answer your question, there are times when I've had days when everything has just went right and the artist has delivered a great performance and I've not had to add any effects at all to tracks. My recording room is about 75% anechoic due to coverings that I have put up on the walls and general clutter which absorbs and diffuses reflections, which right away improves the clarity of a recording vastly. They don't need to be expensive, There are plenty of substances you can buy cheaply that are great for absorbing or scattering sound. What I did for my walls is nailed up some of those foam mattresses that you can roll up for camping, because my maw and paw had a few spare ones (they are very avid hill walkers and have a lot of camping equipment).

Yeah, weren't those the days, just learning and hearing the layers? I once did 9 bouncings, the last part being hitting a wine glass w/ a pencil for a chime. It was sublime! The finished product was at least 3 steps lower (b-4 I knew of the strawberry field splice) and only special ppl are allowed to hear it. These things are dear to me.

Thanks for the encouragement! I know you're right in what you say about good reording essential for good mix for good master. I shall be very happy to acheive a good signal on anything.

My set up is in a very small but high ceiling'd room, so it's boomy in a vertical way. I used to experiemnt w/ material to soak up sound and will do so again after reading what you wrote about it.

[Donna]

Me dear! john, after reading your last post I realized I'm not even sure what "EQ" is!

But the thing which baffles me in recording (and that I call EQ) are the little knobs to get the sound boomier or tinnier, more present or more remote. "Gain" maybe? There're two for each knob, kinda set up on top of one another.

Then, there's the "Trim" knob, which I often turn way down 'cause it's so hot in my ear w/ the headphones (even w/ that left channel blown).

Hey, that quote about choirs has got me thinking! Do you guys reckon it might be good for me to record a choir w/ my four track? Just to learn. I wouldn't mis-represent myself! The Latin Mass choir lets me sit in most of the time, and I'm sure the director would be open to a little experiment. It's very low-key and I'll just tell 'em I know nothing at all. That should take any pressure off.

Prometheus, maybe they sing more exuberently at the end because the music is marked double forte?

[Prometheus]

Me dear! john, after reading your last post I realized I'm not even sure what "EQ" is!

But the thing which baffles me in recording (and that I call EQ) are the little knobs to get the sound boomier or tinnier, more present or more remote. "Gain" maybe? There're two for each knob, kinda set up on top of one another.

Then, there's the "Trim" knob, which I often turn way down 'cause it's so hot in my ear w/ the headphones (even w/ that left channel blown).

Hey, that quote about choirs has got me thinking! Do you guys reckon it might be good for me to record a choir w/ my four track? Just to learn. I wouldn't mis-represent myself! The Latin Mass choir lets me sit in most of the time, and I'm sure the director would be open to a little experiment. It's very low-key and I'll just tell 'em I know nothing at all. That should take any pressure off.

Prometheus, maybe they sing more exuberently at the end because the music is marked double forte?

I think recording a choir to learn is an admirable idea, it throws up a lot of very different challenges than recording a 4 piece rock band...

EQ works by using circuits to boost or attenuate certain parts of the frequency spectrum of a signal... I've got some notes somewhere on how this is done, they had us build a very primitive one at college, using circuits with variable inductive and capacitive reactance, but electronics was never really my thing and I'd rather just let someone else do the building. For working in a room with serious problems, I would say you really need at least a low gain, high gain and a sweepable mid on each channel strip. The sweepable mid is set to a constant Q (ie the bandwidth of frequencies it affects) and you have a pot that lets you move it up and down the frequency spectrum and attenuate a lot of irritating mid range harmonics...

The trim knob is simply a volume control for the preamp that lets you set a reasonable level to tape...

On the double forte point, the choir in question never actually provided us with sheet music. There's another thread in this forum somewhere where I bitch mercilessly about them...

[Donna]

This is coming clearer with everything I read, Deo Gratias! I seem to know what you're talking about (constant q, sweep, etc;) without knowing that I knew. Grateful reference this is. I really want some more reading here before I record again, and you guys are providing it.

Well, I'll just think about whether trying to do the choir is a tangent of no worth or whether it IS.

Hee hee, YOU? B**tch?

PS: when you guys put someone's post in quotes, how do you also copy the name of the post-er?

Have a good one!