hiatus

[starise]

So all of the good people have graduated then and it's just us peons here?  I'm trying to make this humorous but It probably has a reverse effect. Remember this is the internet and things can be misunderstood in type.

 

Does this mean if one of you guys hits it big you won't be around here anymore?   I'll try to hold the fort down. I doubt I'm going anywhere.

 

There are a few who have gone away I wonder about. What happened to Janice? Is she still about?

What about Gry? I guess I could have contacted her to ask, but I didn't want her to think I was hitting on her. Has she moved up to the big time?

 

Lots of others I remember reading here who I never hear from anymore.

 

I guess everyone has different reason for being here. I don't see SS as a temporary stop over, but maybe some do. 

 

Maybe I'm just too old school. Time for new thoughts and new directions. I am content to be where I am. I don't always know where that is. It probably shouldn't be anywhere other than where it is.

 

Music IMO is for the masses and by the masses. Not for the masses and by the few. JMHO YMMV.

 

 

[Just1L]

9 minutes ago, starise said:

So all of the good people have graduated then and it's just us peons here?

 

Remember this is the internet and things can be misunderstood in type.

 

I can't find anywhere in this thread that said something that would make you think that.

 

Sometimes it helps to quote what you're commenting on.

[Pahchisme Plaid]

That's not what I'm saying, Starise.  I'm suggesting possibilities with a focus on other areas, that perhaps they are investing their time on those pursuits for the time being as everyone only has an allotted amount of time in a day and if they are touring, marketing, travelling, and have some manager directing their time, its pretty hard to fit critiques into a day like that.  

 

I understand your perspective that when you've regularly interacted with others and they disappear and you "cared to know", that it can "feel" like a M.E.

 

Its a fact that everyone has different personalities, motives, needs, time usage priorities, and goals as individuals. I think that's okay.  Not any person is gonna fill your shoes in being you and that's a wonderful thing! (You don't want a bunch of Yous around, do you?  I know I wouldn't want a bunch of mes around.  I want to be the only one!)

 

[starise]

The general idea that people move on because they moved up. Moved up to what? Why does that take them away from SS ? 

 

I did exaggerate for humor sake. I keep forgetting. The only time it's really funny is if it isn't funny. I could be beheaded trying to be funny. 

nuf said.

[starise]

Thanks Tom. I've decided I'm not really adding anything good to this discussion.  

 

I don't want to hinder progress. That isn't sarcasm BTW. I mean it. 

 

I simply have my own views which are likely in the minority. 

 

I just like to make and record music. That's about it in a nutshell.

 

I don't have a lot to add in the way of progress for SS. 

 

If SS is a stepping stone for movers and shakers, so be it. To me that takes away the human element. It makes it all about moving and shaking. We should be happy for therm I suppose.

I don't think this is the entirety of it though. Just sayin'

 

OK now I'll be going.

[Just1L]

8 minutes ago, starise said:

The general idea that people move on because they moved up. Moved up to what? Why does that take them away from SS ? 

 

I guess in the most basic terms … How often do you go and hang out at the college you attended, or high school? (only assuming you went) I view this place similar to an institution of learning. Not one you would live the rest of your life, unless you got a job here. Most people aspiring to be songwriters don't think, hmmm I need a forum to live out my days. They want to go to a place where people can hear their work and see how it flies with other people. Get an idea of how they are doing/are they good enough. Some are content just with that. Some want to stay and learn how they can improve. Still others are happy just posting their material and chatting. All perfectly fine reasons to be here. But for those with loftier goals, staying here (or on any songwriting/musician forum) shouldn't be as important of a goal as it is when a person first starts out on here.

[john]

3 hours ago, starise said:

I can see who is online if they choose to be visible and it's usually only a handful of people. TBH I don't go looking at who is here usually. 

I might sign on and forget I'm signed on and be somewhere else lol. So that probably isn't even accurate if others do the same thing.

 

Loosing one regular is disheartening. Seeing two or three go away is like a mass exodus when we  only had under 10 frequenting the site regularly at this location.

 

 

For clarity, the online users you see are those who have been active in the last 15 minutes. Ie you show as logged out 15 minutes after your last action on site.

 

On the very, very, very odd occasion that a member always looked logged in, the6 are probably a bot, or using a bot.

 

As to 2 or 3 members leaving... yet again Mike said he left. Rudi said he was having a break. Jenn has been back on since her break announcement, more than once. In her post she said her reduction in activity was due to creative reasons, not the site.

 

Looking at most visitors, our traffic is slightly better than 3 months ago, and much better than 12 months ago (almost 20% up). Posting stats, our average day is roughly the same as 3 months ago.

 

Members like MP have drifted in and out. Members always have. Partly that goes with their own creativity. Sometimes they are spending time elsewhere.

 

Site registrations are actually better on average too.

 

This isn’t even the first time Rudi has stepped away (as far as I can remember).

 

What we do have here, is a discussion about improving the site, and making it more of the site you want, and more of the site it could be... and that is good. The fact that it has come about because a member leaving has acted to focus on the issues the site has had for 17 years is a good thing. 

 

Songstuff offers a lot, but it could be much better too. The big issue has long been that I am the bottle neck... not the concept. Our site was busier 4 years ago, but site instability due to an overloaded server drove people away. I couldn’t afford to upgrade the server, and I was carrying the entire cost of the site. My pocket was the very real bottleneck. It still is... but hopefully that is changing.

 

I am a major bottleneck in several ways. Things are gradually changing there too. It really is the biggest issue. The site needs people to help, volunteers, and eventually perhaps some paid employees at least for the less popular but necessary tasks!

 

Money. Currently money comes from me, donations and some advertising. Eventually it may sell products or services, or take a commission from providing a platform for members to sell recordings etc. Or money from sponsors... but it has to get to a certain level of activity to attract sponsors, and that starts right on that level of traffic that the server I can afford starts to struggle, immediately undermining any potential sponsorship. Typical.

 

This community has so much to offer, and so much more it could. Whatever we plan has to be realistic.

 

It isn’t doom and gloom, but we very much can improve things. There isn’t something inherently wrong... but there are trends we would do well to embrace. There are issues we would do well to address. There is a reality that needs to be dealt with.

 

Most issues, we can sort by pulling together. Most possibilities and options are achievable, should the community want or need to go in a particular direction....

 

and that that is why this topic is so great.

[john]

On the moving up comments... in my experience time passes, membership make up changes in any group on any platform. Songstuff is no different. I know why several of those mentioned are not all that active on Songstuff, and I am not aware that Songstuff itself was at the root of their change of activities.

 

You would be surprised at just how many move on simply because they are less active musically over all. Life and lifestyles change. While Music has been a life long love of mine, I do know how much time I give to it has had to vary. For me I see as a fundamental component of existence. For some others it can be a nice to have or a momentary flirtation... or at least the time they willingly devote to it.

 

It should come as no surprise that creatives are creative in how they express that creativity. Sometimes that balance changes. I am an artist. I write stories. I enjoy other creative pastimes, and sometimes it is good to do something different.

[MonoStone]

5 hours ago, Tom Hoffman said:

My only issue is with the reoccurring public claim of a "mass exodus", which does not exist.

 

Agreed. I see as many new members as old ones gone. It's turnover.

 

4 hours ago, Pahchisme Plaid said:

I'm suggesting possibilities with a focus on other areas, that perhaps they are investing their time on those pursuits for the time being as everyone only has an allotted amount of time in a day

 

Anyone moving into a music career with a lot of gigging etc is likely to have less time. It's also the case that most here are amateurs/hobbyists or less active in a music career than they once were... and people who are signed, gigging and moving in those circles are in a quite separate world (I don't like that, but it's true, and only a rare few would bother to hang out with the riff raff  ) . But actually I think more people move on for other reasons including - They're bored of it, they got into some kind of argument, they no longer want to lean on others for validation of their songs, they're less musically active, they didn't get the praise they wanted, and so on... more reasons than I could spend time thinking up... 

 

We're all full of ideas, but maybe better to look at which forums have become bigger, and why. Gearslutz for example... well...it's got a cool name, and everyone in music wants to be cool, and it's full of the type of info that any musician or producer will be interested in from time to time...and it appeals to pros and amateurs alike because it's all about the gear, and everyone in music loves gear, and it's cool to talk about gear... **it's maybe seen as less cool to keep asking for help making a song. And it has reviews and interviews on YouTube. And...ummm...yeah it sounds good doesn't it? It has the kind of image that works on a t shirt. It feels like a brand... a cool brand...

** and as I wrote it I thought...hmmm...and that's a bit of a problem. "it's maybe seen as less cool to keep asking for help making a song". At some point don't all of us think  "I really should just get on and trust in myself" ... I think it often... I mean it's one thing to ask a friend 'what do you think of this, mate?' I think that's totally cool and everyone does it, but it's another thing to keep asking a bunch of strangers to pull your song apart and help you get it right.... So there's a reason why I think some might move on if that was the element they'd been here for.... I wonder if there's actually a peak after which seeking a lot of critique makes us (me) lazy rather than learning. I'm not sure.

 

 

[john]

6 minutes ago, MonoStone said:

 

Agreed. I see as many new members as old ones gone. It's turnover.

 

 

Anyone moving into a music career with a lot of gigging etc is likely to have less time. It's also the case that most here are amateurs/hobbyists or less active in a music career than they once were... and people who are signed, gigging and moving in those circles are in a quite separate world (I don't like that, but it's true, and only a rare few would bother to hang out with the riff raff  ) . But actually I think more people move on for other reasons including - They're bored of it, they got into some kind of argument, they no longer want to lean on others for validation of their songs, they're less musically active, they didn't get the praise they wanted, and so on... more reasons than I could spend time thinking up... 

 

We're all full of ideas, but maybe better to look at which forums have become bigger, and why. Gearslutz for example... well...it's got a cool name, and everyone in music wants to be cool, and it's full of the type of info that any musician or producer will be interested in from time to time...and it appeals to pros and amateurs alike because it's all about the gear, and everyone in music loves gear, and it's cool to talk about gear... **it's maybe seen as less cool to keep asking for help making a song. And it has reviews and interviews on YouTube. And...ummm...yeah it sounds good doesn't it? It has the kind of image that works on a t shirt. It feels like a brand... a cool brand...

** and as I wrote it I thought...hmmm...and that's a bit of a problem. "it's maybe seen as less cool to keep asking for help making a song". At some point don't all of us think  "I really should just get on and trust in myself" ... I think it often... I mean it's one thing to ask a friend 'what do you think of this, mate?' I think that's totally cool and everyone does it, but it's another thing to keep asking a bunch of strangers to pull your song apart and help you get it right.... So there's a reason why I think some might move on if that was the element they'd been here for.... I wonder if there's actually a peak after which seeking a lot of critique makes us (me) lazy rather than learning. I'm not sure.

 

 

 

 

At at the same time, Songstuff is about more... stuff is a pretty broad term after all. So perhaps it is branding or the presentation... the wrong emphasis is inhibiting a stronger site development? It can always be better, that is for sure!

[starise]

17 hours ago, Just1L said:

I guess in the most basic terms … How often do you go and hang out at the college you attended, or high school? (only assuming you went) I view this place similar to an institution of learning. Not one you would live the rest of your life, unless you got a job here. Most people aspiring to be songwriters don't think, hmmm I need a forum to live out my days. They want to go to a place where people can hear their work and see how it flies with other people. Get an idea of how they are doing/are they good enough. Some are content just with that. Some want to stay and learn how they can improve. Still others are happy just posting their material and chatting. All perfectly fine reasons to be here. But for those with loftier goals, staying here (or on any songwriting/musician forum) shouldn't be as important of a goal as it is when a person first starts out on here.

 

I see your point now which is I guess what Parchisme Plaid was saying too.  This has made me think of another point.

17 hours ago, Tom Hoffman said:

Great examples Tim! The members you mentioned represent the vast majority of Songstuff member.

Points taken there.

17 hours ago, Tom Hoffman said:

Historically, that's not what it's been. But judging from some of the suggestions I've seen, some would like to see it lean more in that direction.

Regardless, I'm simply a member along for the ride, just like you. 

Have a good one!

 

In reference to the suggestion that this site might be a crossing point for those moving into music as a profession. I agree here. I see those who are in that situation as a minority. Have a good one too 

 

Mono has said mostly what I was thinking. It's kind of a hodge podge really. 

 

13 hours ago, john said:

You would be surprised at just how many move on simply because they are less active musically over all. Life and lifestyles change. While Music has been a life long love of mine, I do know how much time I give to it has had to vary. For me I see as a fundamental component of existence. For some others it can be a nice to have or a momentary flirtation... or at least the time they willingly devote to it.

 

It should come as no surprise that creatives are creative in how they express that creativity. Sometimes that balance changes. I am an artist. I write stories. I enjoy other creative pastimes, and sometimes it is good to do something different.

 

My guess is that SS is made up predominantly of hobbyists or "part time" musicians, lyricists, composers and just people with an interest in learning. This could probably be said of the state of things musically all over. Only a small percentage of the people who like to make and play music are actually out there beating the pavement playing full time gigs. I remember a few here who  play gigs on the weekends and these are serious gigs. For that reason I wouldn't want to undermine the importance of the part timer. We probably carry more weight than some realize. If you don't tell the audience you're part time they won't know. Excuse my french here, there are some damned good part timers.

 

While I can see the reasons for someone not hanging here if they are spending a lot of time in a professional capacity, I would still think they might like to touch base with others of their kind, even if it's just to banter back and forth in the lounge. Or maybe they would be here less often. I don't like the implication of "us" and "them". So called "full time" musicians  spend a lot of time on the road, working things out with their managers. Heck, they need to stop to take a crap and eat just like the rest of us. In the end being "full time" and "professional" aren't 100% playing music all day.

Full time, part time, we all have other things to do. I'm not spilling on you John, just thinking out loud.

 

I still don't have anything really hard hitting to say about the advancement of SS. No knock your socks off genius ideas. IMO if they think they are too good to be here I don't want em' here. They don't really deserve us. 

[starise]

Well..............seen Mike is on the KVR forum. Not surprising since there isn't a better music tech related forum on the planet imho.

 

FWIW KVR is a great example to follow. They've managed to pick up a whole bunch of good people over there. Plenty to learn and do.

I'm not saying SS is a bad place just a different place. 

 

I'm also kicking around the Presonus forum since I'll be deeper into Studio One 3 Pro now. It isn't anything like the Cakewalk forum but they are very helpful there.

 

I told him I was glad to see him and hoped he would get back sometime.

[john]

On 07/12/2017 at 6:29 PM, HoboSage said:

John:  Though it's not something I'm interested in ever using, I point out that, while I see your announcement for the return of a chat box, I don't actually see any chat box. 

 

It’s under the community menu. It was under other features sub menu. So I moved it up a level

[starise]

17 hours ago, Tom Hoffman said:

If I may, I'd like to ask a question of you.

What about the name "Songstuff" is even remotely suggestive of a tech-centric website?

 

I don't think that name really speaks technical to me. So far, I believe that name has stayed true to who comes here....and maybe that's why to some extent it is what it is. 

 

Mono mentioned Gearslutz. I don't really like the name but it serves as a curiosity to probably more than a few. KVR is about as boring a name as you can imagine but that didn't seem to matter. In both of those sites there are forums, but the forums are buried and almost seem secondary to the site itself The Cakewalk site is a technical site on the surface, but there are guys who have known each other there for 30 years or more. Many of these people work in tech as a profession and software as their primary role. People who come there for help almost always find it because people there jump in to help.

 

What seems to be happening though is a kind of comradery developed on these sites. Some individuals have the ability to attract other individuals with a keen sense of humor and a way people just like. People keep coming back to be a part of the group every day to crack a joke, vent or get something off their chest. 

 

The other thing is common interests. On the KVR site there are people who mix for a living. It's nice to talk to someone else who also does that. Or serious part timers who want to be in the know.

 

You'll find that the songs sections at these sites are always minor attractions. These guys have found other ways to put their music out there and just stop by to chat, find an answer or learn something new.

 

To me Songstuff isn't that. Like you Tom, most here aren't into how music is made in software. It started with an idea and they like to either increase their presence or improve on their ideas. They can usually get some kind of help for free, so they come and ask. Those with the time to patiently contribute well are few and far in between. It takes a rare breed to contribute huge amounts of time when their own plate is full to overflowing.

 

And here's the thing too- If you make Songstuff something else, like with a similar area to KVR or Gearslutz it will take time. Maybe a lot of time. Most importantly though it will take the right people. I doubt you'll recruit the people from those other sites since it's become their daily ritual and they probably don't have time for another site. Making SS something else might drive away some of the people we already have if it becomes so different that they don't recognize it.

 

It isn't about the Songstuff brand. It really isn't about Songstuff at all. To become focused on yourself as way to shine is a mistake IMHO. People don't really care. You can come up with a shiny new anything and beg people to come over, but really the deciding factor is the people. 

Having a periodic tech area wouldn't hurt. I wouldn't be trying to compete with the likes of those other sites who have been at it for a lot longer and know how to do it a lot better.

If this is a songwriting site, maybe focus on what a songwrited wants/needs. Only the technical that applies to them. Or maybe how they could look for someone who knows  that *ahem* like me.

[john]

19 minutes ago, HoboSage said:

Um.  Songstuff already has, and has long had, a forum for music/audio tech: http://forums.songstuff.com/forum/136-music-production/

 

In my opinion, additional specific sub-forums deemed more inviting to tech geeks could be added to that forum without at all substantively changing what Songstuff "is."

 

David

 

P.S.  Long ago I suggested adding a sub-forum where members could connect with each other to buy/sell/trade gear with each other - as long as Songstuff made clear those were transactions solely between the parties without Songstuff having any role other than providing a place for the parties to connect with each other.

 

 

 

 

I did did create a set of classified boards, but they just weren’t used. I am not against trying it again if there is an appetite for a classified section

[starise]

Since having taken part in several organizations over time I can tell you one thing holds true. When someone leaves there are always different views on why.

The leadership almost always paints it to look totally like it was the person who left.

The person who left always has different reasons or reasons not brought out by leadership on why they left.

The two seldom ever meet.

In most cases people who leave don't care to tell why they left and simply leave opening the door to guesses and hints on why they left.

 

If only a few leave, the cards are stacked against leadership thinking it has anything to do with them. If many leave leadership is forced to look deeper at the issues. In the case of SS John has been keen to address   possible issues  in a constructive way. Even if only a few leave. This isn't usually the case in other organizations.

 

In order to maintain the group in an organization it isn't uncommon to snipe the person who left behind their back. It makes the group feel better about being the group.

 

Sometimes leaving is no fault of the group at all and the person just needs to find a better place to go for them personally. They don't feel better served being in the group. They aren't really mad at anyone, they just need a change. This is usually not the case though since we are creatures of habit.

 

I gather TapperMike left because he had a run in with one of the mods as he puts it. I don't care what or who or why. I only hope he finds a place he likes. If you don't have the synergy then maybe it's best to go somewhere else.

 

I just had a mod move a post of mine and it has happened several times on another board.. I'm pretty much ready to leave that board since I never breached any of the board rules. It was all just my opinion.

 

It's this sucky relationship we have with one another that makes me usually like being a hermit. I could go for a year in the woods and sometimes think I would love not seeing another human being for a long long time.. My boss has a constant burr in his saddle. I go out to work and see nothing but bland expressions. Like no one wants to be where they are. People are usually rude to one another on the roads here. The mentality seems to be I kill you before you kill me or I'm going to try and see if I can step on you to get what I want. The older you get the less valuable you feel. Like I said I see through the bullshit and it ain't pretty. I try to be a bright spot. I bring in donuts, ask them how they are doing. I try to be something good in something bad. I do my best to get involved and be concerned, but it feels like I'm trying to be a spark on a mountain of night sometimes and I get down.

 

And I can't tell you how many times I ask people how they are doing or how their day is going and it never gets reciprocated. They are so focused inwardly they can't look outside of themselves. . At least the honesty shows through. And....we don't give in order to get....or we shouldn't. Focusing inward when there's nothing to look at is depressing for some people. Focusing outward is healthier, if we focus on the positive things.We can then absorb the good. Energy that comes from without not from within. The army of one gets defeated quickly every time.

 

So a forum is a small thing. Small pickin's compared to the rest of the world. I understand it's important to some and I like coming here. But I have larger fish to fry. I hope you all get the kind of place you like. If nothing else a forum is a good example of what happens in groups all over.

[john]

I just moved a post of yours... a song post to the showcase request board. Is that the post you mean Tim?

 

For clarity that is how that specufic board combination works. The request board is not publicly visible. Members post requests to have their song publicly featured on the Showcase board... because it is a curated board. The Showcase board is publicly visible and will be actively promoted.

 

The act of posting a song as a topic is actively requesting to be featured in the Showcase board. Perhaps it could be changed to leave the original request post and the staff member just reposts the song? It is new, some should expect the process to be refined.

 

Other than that, It is a role of moderation on any board, to move posts and topics to where they best fit. Normally you should be notified by the mod if a move is unexpected.

 

I didn’t notify you because I expected you would have anticipated the move.

 

I will pin a post there explaining the procedure in more detail do there are no surprises.

 

on people leaving I would say our activity levels seem to be about the same... but I do hope that with the changes we make it begins to grow faster. For us all, for the benefit to the community, nothing more.

 

I hope that seems reasonable. If you believe the request process should function differently please please feel free to tell me your ideas for that. I can’t guarantee they would be implemented exactly, but I would very much consider them and implement something that works with all factors.

 

[starise]

7 hours ago, john said:

I just moved a post of yours... a song post to the showcase request board. Is that the post you mean Tim?

 

 

Hi John. I was referring to another message board on another site. Never had any problems with SS. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I wasn't exactly sure how that particular part of the site worked. Do what you feel works best and thanks. Thank you for trying to clear up a problem that didn't exist  

 

Tom Tom Tom, for the love pf Pete man  All of my comments were in reference to my past experiences with groups. I thought of this because we had a few here on "hiatus". 

 

I'm not barking up any trees at all. I don't really know what went down or how it went down and it isn't any of my business. My comments were mainly along the lines of how groups as a whole tend to respond to those who leave. How this applies directly to SS I don't know. 

 

No matter what the group. Take any group with a tight nit core, be it a club, church, company. A group of friends even.Online groups seem to fit the mold albeit in a more casual way less rigid way. 

If you happen to be Amish and leave they disown you.

If you leave a protestant church group they pretty much forget about you eventually. If you made waves when you left, they look unkindly on you.

Companies aren't usually  tight nit, but a few consist of friends who work closely. If you're high up on the chain they might send a company memo saying how you'll be missed, but probably a week later they are looking for your replacement.In a year they might forget your name.

 

In these instances I'm sure the leadership try to do as much damage control as they can. Sometimes the parting is on good terms, even if it's just a thin veneer. 

 

I have no idea who had a problem with who. It happens. It isn't unexpected is it?

 

I don't quite see SS as a thing to be offended. It takes people for that which I agree is probably apart form SS. Still, if the policy of any organization is driving people away, The organization will try to protect itself first. Not saying this is SS. Just sayin'

[john]

On 10/12/2017 at 9:49 PM, starise said:

 

Hi John. I was referring to another message board on another site. Never had any problems with SS. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I wasn't exactly sure how that particular part of the site worked. Do what you feel works best and thanks. Thank you for trying to clear up a problem that didn't exist  

 

 

Good to know Tim. You made your post immediately after I moved your topic and I thought... wait, was that me? Lol

 

On a bright note.. I have now explained how it works lmao

[john]

I would prefer to discuss the individual site improvements of overall strategy in separate threads, and look at the many positive changes that we can take further.

 

To both Rudi and Mike, if you ever read this, I would say... all the very best and I wish you well in whatever you do. I can’t pretend to know exactly why you decided not to be here, but I am damn sure neither of you wish ill upon the site. Rudi, many thanks, because if nothing else, your message sparked this conversation.

 

Many thanks to all for this discussion, your observations and suggestions.