Wondering...

[DaveKell]

For awhile I participated on another songwriting forum before finding this one, which is vastly superior and more professional. I took note of another “songwriter “ there whose comments on some of my submissions seemed strange to me. For instance, when I posted lyrics to Lost And Won’t Be Found he said he had that same exact title in mind. I thought that would be an incredibly coincidence because of the title was a bit unusual. 

 

The other day I was reading a lyric he submitted where he had included a line verbatim from my song I posted called Patches On The Heart. His use of my line made little sense in his lyrics. I posted a comment pointing out his coopting of my wording and quickly got a warning from the moderator who asked if I noticed the “other 45 lines that were not the same as your writing “. I replied that it was a highly unusual phrase but wasn’t a serious issue to me. The moderator said whether it was highly unusual was a subjective thing. 

 

A few days later I saw another submission by this guy with a title I remembered from the 90’s called This Is Me Missing You. Originally by James House. This time the highly inferior lyrics to the original copied how the title was repeated verbatim after verses in the song. I again made comments about the guy using lines verbatim written by someone else and how he duplicated parts of the original song structure. A definite pattern was evident with this guy. 

 

The immediate response from the moderator was a warning of my impending bouncing from the forum. He told me to immediately stop the plagiarizing accusations, which is a word I never used. He then said there are only so many words available to us to use and that reworking song ideas is something we all do. He informed me this guy had submitted hundreds of songs through the years and had his own identifiable style. He advised me to rethink my comments. 

 

Lastly, I asked that everything I had ever submitted be deleted and my membership from the forum be ended. I said reworking a song idea shouldn’t allow for copying lines from the original and a songwriting forum moderator should know that. I pointed out they’re probably lucky I didn’t research more of his submissions. Here’s my question to you all here, was I wrong in my observations?

[DaveKell]

Just out of curiosity I decided to see if I could find more examples of this guy “reworking “ song ideas. Took around 5 minutes to find 3 more. No need to look further. I proved my suspicions to myself. 

[Sterix]

Hi Dave, I'm new to this forum but not new to forums in general. Sounds like the "moderator" is not a very good one (I'm being polite in my phrasing there) and needs to be taught how to moderate and protect their forum properly. Are there any rules to this other forum stating what is and what isn't accepted politcy, and what is expected of both members and moderators? And is the moderator just that - a "moderator" and not an admin? At times like those (thankfully they don't happen that often) I'd report the moderator to their "boss" for failing to do their job properly - or at least to ask for mediation.

 

Me personally though, I would "threaten" the moderator with reporting both themselves and the "plagiarist" to the original writer of that song for possibly copyright infringement. Remind them that they're not as anonymous as they think behind their forum names and that real songwriters have suits and corporations - hence money - behind them and they will come down like a tonne of bricks if they think someone's ripping them off.

 

Politely though (when I say "threaten" I don't mean go all psycho on their backsides!). Show them you're the mature and responsible one, and let them know you have the interests of their forum at heart, as well as protecting your own propery.

[Peggy]

I think it's beneficial to point out an obvious "similarity" when reviewing other people's lyrics. Especially if it's your lyric that the similarity arose from. 

Sometimes it's just that your line got stuck in someone else's head, or they jotted it down because they liked it and forgot to note where they had gotten it.  Then one day they read their notes and think what a great line and use it. That's  not good and most people would want to know if they'd done it.  Sometimes it's blatant, sometimes sheer coincidence of phrasing.   Like Ariana Grande's 2018 song "No Tears Left to Cry" is the line from my 2014 lyric.  

 

But what your describing (and I did alittle checking and eek.. pretty similar) could very well be problematic for this guy someday.

 

2 hours ago, Sterix said:

Show them you're the mature and responsible one, and let them know you have the interests of their forum at heart, as well as protecting your own propery.

 

That is good advice. 

 

[DaveKell]

On 5/12/2019 at 9:11 AM, Peggy said:

I think it's beneficial to point out an obvious "similarity" when reviewing other people's lyrics. Especially if it's your lyric that the similarity arose from. 

Sometimes it's just that your line got stuck in someone else's head, or they jotted it down because they liked it and forgot to note where they had gotten it.  Then one day they read their notes and think what a great line and use it. That's  not good and most people would want to know if they'd done it.  Sometimes it's blatant, sometimes sheer coincidence of phrasing.   Like Ariana Grande's 2018 song "No Tears Left to Cry" is the line from my 2014 lyric.  

 

But what your describing (and I did alittle checking and eek.. pretty similar) could very well be problematic for this guy someday.

 

 

That is good advice. 

 

I'm convinced from further research the guy openly "borrows" lines and song structures he tries to pass off as his own. The amazing thing to me was the support for this the administrator of the forum defended him with. I realize song titles can't be copyrighted. However, to use the title of an old hit and then repeat lines in the same structure is an asinine thing for anybody to do who's supposed to be a serious songwriter with "hundreds of songs in his own style" under his belt. I opted out of participating further in the forum. When I posted lyrics for Lost & Won't Be Found and the guy said "I had that same exact title in mind" I found it way too coincidental because of the unusual nature of the title. Who knows, he might actually write a better version of it than I did although I highly doubt it. His lyrics are by and large way too wordy and are mostly very non entertaining. I have a few people considering recording a few of my songs right now. I doubt that will ever happen for this genius, although I wish him nothing but the best.

[Peggy]

15 minutes ago, DaveKell said:

I'm convinced from further research the guy openly "borrows" lines

I saw this too when I checked just a bit.  It's a weird way to write, grabbing hooks and titles.  Structure is something  different, but not if you're using the same phrasing. 

 

15 minutes ago, DaveKell said:

have a few people considering recording a few of my songs right now

Super!  And all the best.  

[Lisa Gates]

Ha! you think that's bad Dave? I once saw a lyric (I don't remember the forum) where a guy took each line from Garth Brook's "The Thunder Rolls" reworded it and even had "thunder" in his title. You could take V1 L1 and compare to the Garth song's V1 L1 and it was the same meaning. He did this through the whole song! I critiqued him and told him so. Not sure what happened after that. At least I didn't have a moderator attack me for critiquing... I don't know how they can't see that he's stealing lines but if he is a long time member they probably have blinders on where he's concerned. Sorry you have to experience things like this.

I hope your songs get recorded and you can move past this drivel!

Best,

Lisa

[DaveKell]

11 hours ago, Lisa Gates said:

Ha! you think that's bad Dave? I once saw a lyric (I don't remember the forum) where a guy took each line from Garth Brook's "The Thunder Rolls" reworded it and even had "thunder" in his title. You could take V1 L1 and compare to the Garth song's V1 L1 and it was the same meaning. He did this through the whole song! I critiqued him and told him so. Not sure what happened after that. At least I didn't have a moderator attack me for critiquing... I don't know how they can't see that he's stealing lines but if he is a long time member they probably have blinders on where he's concerned. Sorry you have to experience things like this.

I hope your songs get recorded and you can move past this drivel!

Best,

Lisa

Lisa the only thing that moderator was correct about is the idea of songs being reworked all the time. I’ve read a few times in music industry publications about how writers always try to do this with each new unique hit that comes out. The song Daddy’s Hands spurred several different versions of the same idea. I guess cashing in on someone else’s success is par for the course. However, the pros know you don’t borrow lines verbatim and steal the original hit song structure. You’re right about the moderator being a fan of this guy. I read tons of praise he heaped on the guy’s submissions. Here’s how it went down. I started posting lyrics there the moderator highly praised as well. So suddenly this guy starts in with comments like he had the same idea for a song. A few of these were so unusual that the coincidence of his claims should have been suspect to anyone. Where he borrowed my lines verbatim in his songs they didn’t fit the flow and made no sense. The moderator however assured him of his brilliance. That’s when I decided the place was a waste of time. This forum is vastly superior. 

[ImKeN]

I can understand why you left that forum, Dave. Stealing is stealing. Simple as that. Good on you, man!

 

Ken

[zyzzyva]

We all draw ideas form everything. There's nothing wrong with that otherwise there'd be nothing new. Lifting something from someone is completely wrong, and I don't know how anyone would get satisfaction knowing they didn't write that. I know I wouldn't. For example Michan in one of her lyrics I read, wrote the line, "Without you the sun turns off". I love that line. I think that's a great line. I would never use that line the way she wrote it because it's hers. I didn't think of it; she did. I personally couldn't get satisfaction knowing I didn't write it. You do know intellectual property is that of the owner. It doesn't need to be copyrighted. It only needs to have a copyright if you want to bring a lawsuit against someone or some entity. It's pretty easy to prove who wrote what because we all definable tendencies; remember also, not everything can be copyrighted. That's why you see song that have the same titles and movies too etc. It how you arrange something that makes it unique.   

 

Z

[ccarnucci]

My take is s little different.  Im 54 and have been reading, watching TV, and listening to music for decades.  I have heard many phrases over the years.  Every thought I have is not original, but how I use them, in conjunction with melody,  structure , perspective etc.  is what makes them original and mine. I write songs not lines.  If someone uses a line from one of my songs, in a different melody, from a different perspective or surrounded by different phrases, I just consider if a compliment that something I developed made an impact.  Now if someone out there is systemically stealing stuff, karma will, and probably already is, doling out it's justice.

 

Life is too short to sweat the small stuff......(A totally original line I just created)  😉

 

Just my two cents.