What comes first- the music or the lyric?

[Carl Green]

The vast majority of my songs are music written first then the lyric afterwards- I'd say about 95% of the time. I'm going to try it the other way round a few times this year to see how writing the lyric in advance influences how the music and melody goes. It's quite out my comfort zone but I'm intrigued to hear the results. Will it make a discernible difference I wonder. So how about you guys? What comes first- the music or the lyric? 

[John W Selleck]

Hi Carl,

It's the chicken or the egg question. For mostly lyricists, it the lyric. For mostly musicians, it's the music. For me, it's the lyrics but I'm singing along as I write, even though it never ends up as the final music.

[Carl Green]

I've always found it easier to write words to a melody rather than the other way round. Once the tune is in my head, the mood of the song becomes apparent and ideas start to flow. But I have a note-book full of lyrics or half lyrics in search of a melody so it's time I mixed things up a little!

[John W Selleck]

Because I haven't been a musician for many years, and was average at best when I as, lyrics come easier to me. And then  I let my Band In A Box generate music for me. I know, it's cheating, but what's a boy to do?

[john]

The idea.

 

It does vary though.

 

My process has evolved a little over the years to something I am comfortable with. I find using this process has me finishing more songs, and generally writing quicker.

 

Sure, sometimes a melody or clever turn of phrase might jump out at me, but if I sit down with the intention of writing a song without those as a starting point, I start from the idea. The idea gives me the emotional space, the perspective and the message (if any). From the emotion I start working on the melody. That helps define some of the emotional dynamics, and it gives me a rough rhythm. Having an emotional space and rhythm I find words can tumble out leaving me to sort them out. I like to get the title and chorus early on. I also find that if I do that I don't cram the story into a single verse before grinding to a halt with writer's block. Instead, I roughly work out what i want each section to cover and then I start writing the verses etc. If during that whole process individual words, phrases or indeed entire lines come to me, I jot them down to be used later.

 

Other variations I might use would be the use of a beat if I am writing in the studio. For example, I get the idea and the emotion etc, but I know I am writing a pop song, so I take a little time to try a few beats that are in the genre I am targeting. I then loop that beat while I develop the melody. I can then drop some chords and perhaps even a basic bass line... and then I write the chorus words. usually during this process some lines, rhymes, phrases will have come to mind and I start developing them now.

 

I also love writing lyrics in cafes, restaurants and bars. Yet again I still nail the melody first and have that running through my head while I nail the chorus.

 

Many moons ago I used to write lyrics first, often starting with a verse, but I found my completion rate was less, my writing speed was slower and ulimately the songs weren't as good imho.

 

Cheers

 

John

 

[Carl Green]

37 minutes ago, john said:

 

 

 

 

 

37 minutes ago, john said:

Many moons ago I used to write lyrics first, often starting with a verse, but I found my completion rate was less, my writing speed was slower and ulimately the songs weren't as good imho.

 

Interesting. Like I say, it's not my usual way of working but I love a challenge. Might find a nice coffee shop to get the wheels turning! Cheers.

[James Anderson]

i   usually  get  the   lyrics    melody    and   chords   at  the   same   time   i  dont    think   about   writing songs   most  of  the  time   the   ideas   just  come   to  me   and  i  just   listen  to  the  music   in   my  head

[MikeRobinson]

There have been plenty of "legendary songwriting teams" – Rogers and Hammerstein, Rogers and Hart, Lloyd Webber and Stilgoe – where one partner focused on one side of the equation at the total exclusion of the other.

 

And therefore, I predict that "the actual songs that resulted" were a consequence of this dynamic.  Probably, the iconic works that we enjoy today were either "a marvelous melody in search of a lyric," or "can you please set this line to music," or, far more likely, both.

 

"The Art of Making Art is ... putting it together ..."

[John W Selleck]

I think everything boils down to one thing, knowing what works best for you, and doing that. Sometimes that boils down to knowing and accepting your limitations. I know that I will never be able to write, even with auto-generated chords, melody, and solos, anywhere near what a natural musician can. That's why I reach out for collaborations all the time.  I do know I write lyric that appeals to many people, at least in my chosen audience. My lyrics will never appeal to the poets who want over complicated lyric, but that's not my audience.

[Danidog]

On 2/4/2020 at 2:33 AM, John W Selleck said:

I think everything boils down to one thing, knowing what works best for you, and doing that. Sometimes that boils down to knowing and accepting your limitations.

That is pretty much me in a nutshell.

As nearly as I can describe it, I start with something (a thought, a visual I see, or a smell that triggers a memory and/or a strong emotion), and grab my storyboard and write down every phrase, word,  or idea surrounding that initial thought. Usually, by the end of that process, the verses, chorus, and title are in that mix somewhere.

I pick up the guitar and start forming the words into complete phrases, and as a verse emerges, the chord progression follows. 

I suspect my process is guided by my strength in writing and weakness as a musician. 

[John W Selleck]

12 hours ago, Danidog said:

I suspect my process is guided by my strength in writing and weakness as a musician. 

I am also sure determination fits in there somewhere to. It has to for all of us, also a thick skin!

[MikeRobinson]

Y'know, John, when you talk about "thick skin" and so on ... I really think that we always need to remind ourselves that the actual process of "being creative" is never a "Venus de Milo moment."  Your song isn't going to magically appear out of a clamshell, "fully-formed and totally-starkers." 😲

 

Nope ... it's going to be a choice.  In fact, a whole bunch of choices.  During which you're going to feel that you are groping along in the dark.  And, quite likely, which might wind up with several pretty-good alternatives from which you have to choose just one.  (After carefully filing the others away in your "morgue file" – a newspaper term – for use in your next masterpiece.)

 

Of course, nobody ever stands at the podium, accepting their Grammy® Award, talking about that process.  The audience only hears the finished song, and really doesn't care about the process.  We want to admire Michelangelo's David without ever thinking about chisels and polishing.  We want to believe that, one day, "the song just materialized," precisely as we hear it on the radio today.  Don't bother us with details. 

 

Okay, so that's what the public wants to hear.  Let them hear it.  Meanwhile ...

 

Meanwhile, don't let mistaken expectations defeat you before you begin.  Creativity is not a deterministic process.  You're making progress even when you can't see it.  There is never "one right answer."  It doesn't exist.

 

And also:  "keep a [digital] tape recorder running all the time."  Likewise, if you've worked on something and you want to "wad it up and throw it in the trash" ... don't wad it up, and put it into a folder named Junque that you never empty.  Some of your very best tomorrows might begin with yesterday's trash.  These days we are blessed with unlimited storage:  make the best of it.

[John W Selleck]

10 hours ago, MikeRobinson said:

Y'know, John, when you talk about "thick skin" and so on ... I really think that we always need to remind ourselves that the actual process of "being creative" is never a "Venus de Milo moment."  Your song isn't going to magically appear out of a clamshell, "fully-formed and totally-starkers." 😲

Yup, the chick doesn't come out fully hatched, there's a lot of warming up to do before we hear the Cheep's.

[James Anderson]

i  get    melody   chords     and   lyrics   at   the  same    time

[John W Selleck]

15 hours ago, James Anderson said:

i  get    melody   chords     and   lyrics   at   the  same    time

Wish I did. My muse is stingy with everything but lyrics but she is very generous with those, especially when I am trying to sleep.

[James Anderson]

i   know   what   you  mean  john     i  can   wake   up   with  a  song

[Danidog]

At one point in time, I'd keep pen and paper beside the bed. I decided I liked sleep better. I only let the muses call during office hours now. 

[John W Selleck]

14 hours ago, Danidog said:

At one point in time, I'd keep pen and paper beside the bed. I decided I liked sleep better. I only let the muses call during office hours now. 

I would have lost a lot of great lyrics that way. They may never earn me any more money but I sleep well afterwards.

[ShepBranson]

It depends very much on how you develop as an artist. For me, lyrics always come first. For musicians lyrics sometimes don't even matter.

There's the story of George Harrison that found inspiration opening a book where the phrase "Gently Weeps" were written. 

[AnikaShea]

Melody first for sure. For me, melody is so much more important, and I wouldn't wanna be limited by the syllables and junk.