Are you interested in learning about music marketing via challenges?

[john]

Hi Gang

 

I've tried a couple of challeneges with barely any takers, so I thought I would try another approach...

 

Building music marketing skills tends to be hit or miss, with little coordination, and no real direction. The music marketing challenges I intend to post will be about specific skills development to try and help you to address what needs addressed and learn how to build the patchwork of tools and assets necessary for you to market your music effectively. CREATIVITY is key to effective music marketing.

 

Think of Music Marketing as another method of communicating with your fans (just as your music is, just as the way you dress and style yourself is, just as the way you move is, or the way you talk - your "image"). Indeed, music marketing pretty well includes all of that.

 

Interested in following some challenges and improving how you market and promote your music? Are you actually interested in BUILDING A FANBASE?

 

😱

 

If you are interested, please reply below saying you are interested.

 

Do you know other artists that would benefit from these challenges? I bet you do. Please invite them. Once we have a reasonable bunch of motivated members we can get started. If you want me to help you guys, getting enough people to take part is a good motivational challenge.

 

"John, why don't you drum up people to take part"

 

What, you want me to help you and go searching for people to help? I volunteer loads of time and money towards helping you guys do more with your music. I really don't have time to go searching for people and run the challenges and all the other stuff I have to do. So, if you guys want the help, then the cost to you is to get others to actively participate.

 

Just ask yourself three questions:

 

1. How many fans do you have? Not social media likes, comments or shares. Remove family and friends who are fans of you, not your music. I mean actual, real FANS.
2. When you do your next release, how many new fans do you expect to have after 6 weeks?
3. Do you know what to do to get better results?

 

Or, maybe you are happy with your rate of progress plan to keep marketing your music the way you have been. In which case carry on.

 

Cheers

 

John

 

[john]

2 hours ago, Patchez said:

Define Fan?  (more)

 

There are some

Potential Listeners - These are people you have identified as potential listeners from the general population. They are typically cold prospects

Casual Listeners - Listeners potential fans Can be cold, warm or hot.

Followers - These are listeners who keep up with the band, but they are not yet buyers of your products. They can be cold, warm or hot. They are likely to be mailing list subscribers.

Fans - Followers who have previously bought (or at least bought into) your products. Fans can be dormant, warm or hot. Members of your mailing list.

Super Fans - Super hot fans who buy all your products, go to as many gigs as they can, absolute ambassadors, try to meet you, even follow you on tour.

 

I would define them further, but you get the idea. It's a measure of level of interest and commitment. If you don't sell, but instead offer free downloads or similar, people go through similar psychological stages, but as they never have to demonstrate commitment in the same way, that connection tends to be weaker, more fragile. The exception being the natural fan... (often those who seek you out). These defnitions are at least enough to get you started with interacting with these groupings more effectively. It's more important than most people know.

 

Super fans is a naff name, but such fans do exist, no matter what level the artist is at.

 

2 hours ago, Patchez said:

I think if I spend to much time getting "Listens"... (fans?), I will spend all my spare time, Mixing, and Marketing and not "Painting" the canvas... and/or what I Paint gets Redirected to a more Formulaic, if even "cult" ism formulas -- how to do it, thingy. 

 

A common concern. There is certainly a balance to be had. By not courting your audience you can spend a load of time painting masterpieces for them to sit unappreciated, unenjoyed, unknown on a shelf. Forever. Understanding certainly helps, but my approach would be to gradually evolve understanding  while you focus on the doing part. Not only that you minimise the doing part by using tools where you can and by using templates and process to smooth the ride. By working with chosen others you can go even further by specialising and sharing workloads (and yes I know that is not without it's own issues).

 

2 hours ago, Patchez said:

Sales? Hahhh... really... you'll have Led Zep calling if have that figured out... Mariah Carey will be driving over with Jack White and Page for another it "migh get even louder, realer", the girls gone wild version

 

Funnily enough what the music industry does is founded on an old style of marketing. The notion of relationship is kind of bolted on as an afterthought. It relies on a high stakes gamble based around brand awareness and media saturation. It's hard to measure performance accurately and that makes it very hard to predict and that makes it high risk.

 

Importantly, as a business model, that approach doesn't even work efficiently for big labels. It really doesn't work well for independents because... they don't tend to have the access, contacts, know-how, tools or large budgets that are needed to really make this approach work.

 

Working damn hard for a couple of years gigging 5 gigs a week can build enought to help you get a foot on the lower rung. Large social media numbers can do similar. Yet, it is still only the bottom rung and importantly, "Use it or lose it" never applied more.

 

2 hours ago, Patchez said:

For me, a, "this is what I'm going to do" Curriculum that does not Frame the definitions of the Delimeters first, just breaks with all the many projects, paradims, so to speak, ---- I've ever engaged.

 

This challenge based system aside, the guerrilla ebooks and not guerrilla approach course I am preparing have a lot of "execution plans" which are step by step implementations of the conceptual explanations and reference information. The idea being to focus on the tangible gains first. My intention was to take the same kind of approach for challenges where possible, focusing on go here, do this.

 

The trouble is that promotion falls into either what you can do for free or what you can do with a budget lol I'm not a huge fan of the Guerrilla as a label, but it is accepted as a name these days. Most guerrilla tactics are pretty cheap and disposable. That said, my big problem with most guerrilla playbooks is that they are more or less lists of things with little detail and zero explanation of how they all fit together, how they fit within a big picture or the priority you should give them. There just isn't a given overall strategy. A list of tactics with no strategy isn't of huge use to anyone.

 

That aside, most guerrilla guide tactics are pretty low grade. Guerrilla assets are pretty necessary, if obvious. For example having a Soundcloud or Reverbnation account or similar. A step up would be your own web site, but it is a significant skill step up and usually a small budget. They pretty well have to be included at a minimum. A meaningful guide on how to set them up effectively, include a meaningful bio etc is good but most guerrilla guides avoid such detail. One or two like tactics are just cheap content. Filler. They may as well write "do stuff" lol

 

People do all learn at different rates, in different ways. What each needs to learn is different too. I guess in going through trying some new or restructured marketing tasks the aim would be to fill in some gaps and make things easier while improving results.

[Danidog]

This sounds interesting. I wouldn't mind participating to whatever extent I can right now. In a few weeks as I heal I'll be able to more fully participate.

Seems like anyone doing what we do would want to learn how to market themselves. I know I'm at the eleventh hour personally, would love to have had this opportunity years ago.

 

I also know a local young lady who seems somewhat driven to build a following locally, I'll pass this on to her also. 

[Cody]

I could be interested to participate in whatever "challenge" this may be, or at least be your guinea pig  .... I have no real online presence.....haven't for years, I have no archived recordings/albums....the few I have done were very limited(tapes, so not many would ever want them anyway hahah) and mostly given away at shows, the demos I do do are just that, mostly done while writing a tune, so I can hear it, get some initial feedback, then work on it, to be played, not recorded and passed around as @Patchez puts it quite well.....used cars to used car dealers, the music "non-business" being what it is today, here and now, not 6 months ago, not 6 months in the future,  (but nobody knows what the future holds for live-venue music, where I'm usually quite content to pluck away in relative obscurity) usually even a different band name every time, and usually some tragic accident that has befallen the "band" so sorry they can't make it tonight  Fans?  what're those? you mean those drunk people whose dollars I from time to time enjoy  

 

So with some trepidation sure, I suppose count me in  I'll get some recording done next few months.  Not really any work around music or otherwise, not with my skill set, and not anywhere I can get to.  Not like you're asking for a blood contract  ......would do you no good anyway, my soul got sold long ago, pretty sure my buddy still has the paper framed haha.  I think I got a doobie for it, and maybe some guitar strings  he got ripped off. 

[john]

9 hours ago, Cody said:

I could be interested to participate in whatever "challenge" this may be, or at least be your guinea pig  .... I have no real online presence.....haven't for years, I have no archived recordings/albums....the few I have done were very limited(tapes, so not many would ever want them anyway hahah) and mostly given away at shows, the demos I do do are just that, mostly done while writing a tune, so I can hear it, get some initial feedback, then work on it, to be played, not recorded and passed around as @Patchez puts it quite well.....used cars to used car dealers, the music "non-business" being what it is today, here and now, not 6 months ago, not 6 months in the future,  (but nobody knows what the future holds for live-venue music, where I'm usually quite content to pluck away in relative obscurity) usually even a different band name every time, and usually some tragic accident that has befallen the "band" so sorry they can't make it tonight  Fans?  what're those? you mean those drunk people whose dollars I from time to time enjoy  

 

So with some trepidation sure, I suppose count me in  I'll get some recording done next few months.  Not really any work around music or otherwise, not with my skill set, and not anywhere I can get to.  Not like you're asking for a blood contract  ......would do you no good anyway, my soul got sold long ago, pretty sure my buddy still has the paper framed haha.  I think I got a doobie for it, and maybe some guitar strings  he got ripped off. 

Getting some recordings together would help. You can always apply the challenges at the right time for you. Meanwhile, why not choose to help other artists as we go so you can try stuff out at the time? It would help them and give you a ready made vehicle.

 

Many of the ideas (with a little tweak) would also work for promoting Songstuff. If you can’t choose an artist to benefit from your efforts, you could try the same things to help the community? Just suggestions to allow you to try now. I would be the first person to encourage you to get recording, but I do appreciate that might mean missing out on the practical application of challenges until you are ready.

 

That said, we will have a few challenges that are about creating marketing assets, from bios and press kits to press releases. You can work on those projects preparing for when your tracks are ready.

 

Even if your image was “Hobo Chic”, or an anti-image, you still need the assets, the photos, the artwork. You still need to have them ready to use.

 

So much music marketing is about getting your ducks in a row.

 

Think of Music Marketing like a music performance:

• You wrote the piece to be performed.
• Each performer/instrument is an account or place where you can promote.
• The notes they play is the implementation of a marketing tactic
• When you start, you are a solo player.
• Gradually, you add more performers. For that to be effective, they need to play their part, at the right time, at the right speed and the right volume, with the right feel... 
• To act as individuals where they do their own thing, can actually work against you. Unreliable can be very unhelpful 
• So all performers work together towards a whole, a master arrangement
• When you have a lot of performers, it can sometimes be best to have a conductor to make sure you all sync correctly.

Point is, you start simple and build. 
 

Most indies are solo performers, in the analogy above, or they have a small number of very loosely organised performers. Each has a basic tune to play but they all love improvising.

 

The thing is, without the master arrangement, without discipline, and some form of coordination... all  you get is a cacophony of noise. The difference between the racket of an orchestra tuning up versus the beautiful symphonies they play.

 

You get the idea.

[john]

49 minutes ago, Patchez said:

 

 

Well said, of course. 

  -- What are the bullet points, actually, in the plan, --  not the great analogies commented?

 

And...: 
One consideration, and my not be for some, but for more than many know, it is... "doxing"

 

Prior to putting all that out there assuming the best from your fellow man?  



A long time ago, I walked into a meeting and for 30 minutes, could not get away from MUSIC questions. For me, I didn't care for that since do like to compartmentalise, functionally speaking. No, I do not like scheduling a meeting and helping folks with musc questions. No. 

 

 

 -- Alias 

 

 

Moreover, in this 2020 world, of shityness, -- anti-fah, doxing "sage-members", -- and general other, being 3 - 4 ID's below the ID you're known as is part of the plan (what's their stage name?). (This will be Facebooks down fall, or the Ai will be, as it is actually, -- useless like a warm hug in the desert in august. 

So, prior to putting al that out there, -- something to consider? Why?   You need/want explanation? OKay!... 

 

 

Well, I had just left "other places" in which some of the shittiest folks you could ever want to know, with prolific anti-Jesus graphics, anti-USA and etc., you'd ever want to know... used ... (music related?, really?): 

 -- their real names

 -- very real online business names

 -- even for an after party  so, smart, put out their upper west side NYC address, yeehaw... 
 -- other

 -- with prolific gusto, picked fights with folks who did not "agree", that's how they ID'd you, you didn't "conform" and say Yayyy yayyy comrad musician anti-fah friend... your lyrics will live in granite in the new white-hause? 

 

Now, "me" kind sole/soul? that I am would REMIND these animals  (really, you can check that), ---- of their comfort level in shitting on Trump, Jesus Christ, America and Old White Men... that if they annoy the wrong person, many uncomfortable things could occur. How do I know? How do you think? 

 

I made up the term grey-web for that since the "dark web" is not the primary issue. Those folks would IMMEDIATELY calm down or move to Facebook  hahhh, stupid, really stupid  .... since some were actually workng onine and posting their "Top 100 Music Awards" from "grey-web" "Radio" cast (I tracked down to vet the "award"? really, not NASH - ville?, oh, say it ain't so),  in the large audiences of the Ukraine and other, Croatia, etc... YeeHaww... congrats on the Top 10 Play List award, there..., on a foul foul foul mouthed login only, encrypted, site of alt-music, -- yeehaw... I wanna be like you? No. 

So, since seems,  and yet may not be relevant,  and yet an ongoing paradigm, -- something to be aware of? I'm so gorgeous too, I have to protect myself from papparazzi and etc. But, maybe not you, then skip/ignore it  

 

I am quite gladly out of that bubble. That is at least a good part of the reason I don't want political debate on Songstuff, it is a music site. I don't want to dive down the politics, religion, gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation rabbit hole. I am quite sure doxing goes on in all directions by people on all sides. Such anti-anything graphics would not be allowed here. My personal Facebook page is littered with my opinions, yet I manage to keep all that crap off of Songstuff. It doesn't belong here. I enjoy debating issues with reasonable people... just not here.

 

Here? Well we're here to talk music.

 

People can be targeted for their opinions outside of Songstuff. I can only take action to make sure that does not happen here and that individuals are not pestered as a hidden bullying campaign. If you encounter any such behaviour on Songstuff, please report it to staff and let us deal with it. Responding in kind to them gets into he said - she said territory and it becomes impossible to police and we might end up warning or banning both parties. Someone else being intolerant does not justify others to be intolerant. Please report the issue to a mod and ignore the instigator. Instead, let the mods deal with it.

 

If you feel you need to protect your ID (What has the world come to?) then talk to me in PM and lets see if there is a way that you can work on the exercises in a way you would be comfortable with?

 

 

I intend covering the very basics of:

 

Assets:

• Artist Profiles
• Bio (in a bit more detail)
• Press Kits
• Press Releases
• Blogs
• Social Media Profiles
• Mailing Lists

 

I cover all of the above (and much more) in a a lot of detail in our courses but I can't just give all that away otherwise... but I can cover some essentials and get you considering more and adjust your thinking. Just like music, detail makes a huge difference.

 

I will be covering:

• A very basic release plan
• Simple promotion plan
• Some forum promotion tactics
• Some social media promotion tactics (main networks)
• Music press & Music bloggers
• Writing copy
• Metrics
• Music sales
• Livestreams
• Team work, collaboration and cooperation
• Building and caring for your fanbase
• more...

There are a load of other topics I could cover, and a load of detail I wont be covering, but I hope to give you an appreciation for these topics and an understanding of what they bring to the party.

 

I am open to suggestions for things you would like to be cover. I will see if there is a way to work it in. I hope you will understand, some things I will not be able to as that would compromise the courses and all the hard work that has been put into them by myself and the staff. We did all that to allow the site to become self sufficient. To give it all away now would undermine the future of the community.

 

I am hoping that going through all this here will be of great benefit to members, inspire them and give them a new appreciation of what they could realistically achieve. If it can give you all a step up, that would be well worthwhile.

 

 

[Cody]

4 hours ago, john said:

 

 

Even if your image was “Hobo Chic”, or an anti-image, you still need the assets, the photos, the artwork. You still need to have them ready to use.

 

So much music marketing is about getting your ducks in a row.

 

 

 

well put!

 

Kind of hard being a hobo when stuck in a house  hahahah although the streets here in the US are not a place I'd wish on anyone right now.

Maybe wisened old soul hobo with still a place to go  Really always just considered myself a traveler as we're all just here passing through  

 

I think this is a great idea, and just the small time I've been here, am positive you have the best of intentions.  I'll help in whatever capacity I can.  I have tried to send a few people this way as well, I'll keep working on a few of them, but they're pretty bitter and been shit all over by the music industry themselves, particularly after the shift to online, and everyone seemed to of forgot the difference between a home recording,  a show, or actual studio work , and probably all one big paradigm shift that will never return.  One old man in particular would make @Patchez seem the most optimistic young buck you'd ever met  Never set out for any fame/fortune and has managed to eek out a living doing what he loves and in the last few years has finally gotten some well deserved and long overdue recognition, says it means nothing, but give him a few sips and he'll tell you how good it feels .  Dipped his toe into the internet world a time or two, had it bitten off, such is the world of 1's and 0's ....... Some other folks too could really benefit from this I know, just take awhile to track them down, and same sad old story, may not even be interested anymore. 

Thing the internet tied into music has been best at, the music industry has always been a you're not worthy type of business, but I am because I know so and so, or have done this for so many years, but was much easier to ignore from someone you could look in the eye and size up and know it was mostly due to jealousy, or just straight up hate.  Hard to ignore when it's millions screaming it from behind screens, a lot of really great talent has always gone undiscovered and unheard, but when it's so easy for just the loudest voice per se to get all the attention and everyone says oh I have a computer and can do that too, that's nothing special.......I feel its even worse.  

[john]

There's a number of ways to view fanbase. Lists are the true currency of the  music industry.

 

Your fanbase is indeed a gateway to being a professional musician (should you want to)

 

But first and foremost, your fanbase is simply a bunch of people who get your music, who truly appreciate it. They look forward to it. There's no difference between someone being a fan of you or them being a fan of Led Zep. Fans are fans. The psychology is the same.

 

Point is, think about them as people who actively look forward to your music. You can make their day by letting them hear a song, or sending them a message.

 

Compare that to the average indie's audience. A few friends that kind of like your music, your aunt and uncle who are proud of you, but would never dream of putting your music on if it wasn't for the fact that you are their nephew, and a few colleagues who are half interested in listening, half looking for a reason to laugh at you etc.

 

You only get to build real fans when you reach beyond friends and family into groups of people you've never met. To have people who you have no connection to, loving your music... it's a great connection to make. It does wonders for your motivation to know that people are waiting for your release. People excited by your announcements and teasers instead of rolling their eyes or getting pissed off by them.

 

THAT is what building a fanbase really means.

[john]

33 minutes ago, Cody said:

 

well put!

 

Kind of hard being a hobo when stuck in a house  hahahah although the streets here in the US are not a place I'd wish on anyone right now.

Maybe wisened old soul hobo with still a place to go  Really always just considered myself a traveler as we're all just here passing through  

 

I think this is a great idea, and just the small time I've been here, am positive you have the best of intentions.  I'll help in whatever capacity I can.  I have tried to send a few people this way as well, I'll keep working on a few of them, but they're pretty bitter and been shit all over by the music industry themselves, particularly after the shift to online, and everyone seemed to of forgot the difference between a home recording,  a show, or actual studio work , and probably all one big paradigm shift that will never return.  One old man in particular would make @Patchez seem the most optimistic young buck you'd ever met  Never set out for any fame/fortune and has managed to eek out a living doing what he loves and in the last few years has finally gotten some well deserved and long overdue recognition, says it means nothing, but give him a few sips and he'll tell you how good it feels .  Dipped his toe into the internet world a time or two, had it bitten off, such is the world of 1's and 0's ....... Some other folks too could really benefit from this I know, just take awhile to track them down, and same sad old story, may not even be interested anymore. 

Thing the internet tied into music has been best at, the music industry has always been a you're not worthy type of business, but I am because I know so and so, or have done this for so many years, but was much easier to ignore from someone you could look in the eye and size up and know it was mostly due to jealousy, or just straight up hate.  Hard to ignore when it's millions screaming it from behind screens, a lot of really great talent has always gone undiscovered and unheard, but when it's so easy for just the loudest voice per se to get all the attention and everyone says oh I have a computer and can do that too, that's nothing special.......I feel its even worse.  

 

The world of music is full of jaded, shat upon people. Victims. People sold on a dream that couldn't happen, even when it was tantalisingly close.

 

The fact is, artists need the truth. Something that the industry is not used to supplying. They also need real fans. That feels like a bit of a black art to many artists. They need to know that they do not need to do things the same as the rest of the industry. They also need to know that they can build their music following more predictably and at a much reduced risk. They need to know that a realistic dream can be achieved.

 

Given all that, many musicians re-engage. They regain purpose and feel better about making music once again. Importantly, given a bit of knowledge and the right tools they finally feel they have some control. Put all that together and they actually begin to get a bit of self-belief again. That can't be a bad thing.

[john]

Ok, so 3 people interested. Anyone else?

[Peggy]

I am going to join in.   

 

[Cody]

10 minutes ago, Patchez said:

Yes, what I been trying to explain, -- not be "contrarian", real issues of why, and hopefully why "here". The ugly conversations have to be had openly. Maybe a Category, [ Scheit-storm Topics ]  And if anyone has any doubts, link them over and tell them to just read  then come back. 

 

I could explain, -- want me too  ? hahhh!

😂 nope! TLTR not "here" for discussions or conversations or learning about all things music  

[Cody]

4 minutes ago, Patchez said:

I think what works is like a "Levon Helm" -- who then opened his Barn, and kept going; "CBGB" came and went and other. Can a VIRTUAL portal do the same? "That", -- may be a part of the "it". There are many places to stream yourself... but not "one" known artists Venue specifically, virtually. ( No, not Youtube  ... a "real" "virtual" place Hahhh!   ) 

Hmmmmm actually quite interesting! Food for thought.....I know of a barn or three with internet access  No AC though so livestreaming or virtual real selves might get a little uncomfy

[john]

54 minutes ago, Patchez said:

For me, I don't see "on-line" exclusively working, but, I would love to be wrong!

 

Define "working" please.

 

I suspect an answer similar to "How long is a piece of string?"

[Cody]

13 minutes ago, john said:

 

Define "working" please.

 

I suspect an answer similar to "How long is a piece of string?"

Is there a cat in that box?

[john]

Just now, Cody said:

Is there a cat in that box?

 

lol Schrödinger's cat?

[Cody]

3 minutes ago, john said:

 

lol Schrödinger's cat?

aye! or is it alive or dead? you'll never know, by looking you changed the outcome, or even by thinking about it!

[Cody]

1 hour ago, Patchez said:

 

 Like   @Cody described his two buddies he's tried to coax over?, ---  (Cody, mr. anti-electricity?, and mr. canadian-blunt?  those two would fit in, -- if folks were ready for them to do the "half way" house period in gen-pop here, and not the padded cell, -- our club  first, -- I am sure "boundaries" would be tested (?) and would have to be tolerated, -- as all our krappe was (thank you again, John  ) ... 
 -- That's kind of the hard part to get folks to come over... they just don't belive it's gonna be better, beneficial and many like me are/were ready to just stay off line a while and get burried in studio work. Now that will happen, but -- when the "Musication" starts to come for all the wiriting I/We did (lock thread alert  ) and just the daily morning writes. -- see I got side tracked... back to "working... not new folks "here".


 

 

  -- Like I said, I'll be here, watching, reading intently. I vote we push Cody in front of that bus and if he survives, then proceed? 🥴 
 

 

Yup I had just pm'd you about ragweed and crotchety old bastard, somewhere in there amongst the rambles  

 

and I'd have to second, that......Thank you, sincerely @john and gang

 

Haven't been close to the other in a while, but yeah he's pretty outspoken and loves a good laugh  just have had a few recent conversations, but the old man has always been a handful  never grew out of his mischievous adolescent ways  gotta love him for it, he does see the world through the eyes of a very highly experienced child hahaha.   

 

 

Gee thanks  said I'd be a guinea pig, nothing about the first one hah, it'll take me at least a month/two to get some recordings I'm actually happy enough with anyway  If I'm going to do more than just push record and see what happens.  As stated though, would be more than willing to get behind someone/help anyway I can, I'm nice and comfy behind the scene(s)    I may jump without looking too hard, but I take a glance for broken bodies on some hidden rocks first  

 

 

[john]

6 hours ago, Cody said:

Thank you, sincerely @john and gang

You are very welcome!

 

Ok so we have 4 so far, possibly 5:

 

@Patchez

@Cody

@Danidog

@Peggy

 

 

possibly @Richard Watashi?

 

@Mahesh?

 

It would be good to be 10+, just because of interaction levels. 

[Cody]

I'll second that @Richard Watashi whether he wants to or not

 

Surely some others willing, just lurking around