What Are You Trying To Achieve With Your Songs?

[john]

8 hours ago, fasstrack said:

I play 'commercial' music for money---but only good melodies I believe in and can sound good playing.

 

I would never dumb down MY music to get over commercially. If 3 people like it, cool with me, as long as they're the right 3.

 

I'm actually naive enough to believe in presenting things honestly and from the heart---WHATEVER style or topic---and letting the chips fall.

 

And I'm a success on my own terms: world-class musicians have acknowledged both my playing and composing. Yeah, I'm bragging and I have every right. 

 

Commercial? I played the street today, froze my ass off, made $8. I played my ASS off, and on songs people are supposed to KNOW. Maybe 4 people looked up to even nod acknowledgement in 3 hours. But most have no clue what music is, especially as performed LIVE by experienced, qualified musicians. If it doesn't come out of a digital toy it ain't real to these self-absorbed ignoramuses. Actual music would interrupt their drooling reveries---and piss them off, if they bothered to have ANY reaction. (How can you react to something your parents don't even know about or your equally ignorant 'teachers'?)

 

There's NOTHING wrong with me, or the many more like me. The rest of the world needs to get ITS shit together... 

 

And yet you sometimes get pretty annoyed about your lack of income. I can understand the stress, believe me, but I think it’s unfair to blame the audience. To believe your taste is sanctified while other people’s taste is dross is not exactly constructive or fair.

 

What is music? An elite experience for the chosen few? Something only smart, informed people deserve to get and screw the rest?

 

Music is entertainment. It is communication. Importantly, the classics were the pop of their day. The composer and the performer communicated with, and entertained the masses, talking the musical language of the day. Times changed and that language moved on. Indeed, the Great American Songbook evolved from something too. Ability, understanding, sophistication, education... all come and go. As do topics, genres, styles, instrumentation etc.

 

When you entrench yourself, by choice, and find yourself complaining that you talk to fewer people, only make a few bucks, you are recounting a transition that is as inevitable as the tide coming in and going out. It happens. It’s going to keep happening. Being even the remotest bit bitter about a predictable, direct consequence of your own choice just seems like a self fulfilling prophecy of negativity. No fun.

 

An analogy. You love my analogies

 

So this architect specialised in building bridges. He loved them, revelled in their Engineering. Yet every time he designed and built a bridge he would get upset. Not enough people stopped to appreciate his bridge. A bunch of people did cross them, but in general the bridges were quieter than expected.

 

The fact us, bridges help people cross water, railways roads etc. They all bypass something, allowing you to cross from A to B. That is the fundamental function of the bridge. The public only care so much about how the bridge achieves that. From time to time a bridge demands their attention briefly, but then it’s straight back to the usual.

 

Bridges need to be where people want to cross. If you build bridges where people don’t want to cross, they don’t use them. Simple. It doesn’t matter enough that the bridge is build by this technique or using a specific material. If the bridge isn’t built in the right place, it isn’t used. Going and standing where the traffic is, pointing at your bridge, still won’t elicit much traffic if your bridge isn’t in the right place. Insulting people as they go by doesn’t change the result.

 

The fact is, like it or not, if you want your bridge to be used, it has to be in the right place, first and foremost. There are so many factors in where exactly that is, to waste time being annoyed is futile.

 

So, many designers try to build their bridges in the right place, with the right materials in a design people can appreciate, while building in their own taste, educating people in the background, introducing them to unexpected things, interesting things.

 

Music is the same. Culture, environment, history and a whole lot more impact trends. Those trends are bigger than us. As writers we can chose to ignore them, only to encounter consequences we can anticipate. In making that choice, we can generally guess that consequence or close to it. We can hardly bemoan, grumble, complain. We knew this was likely and it was entirely our choice.

 

There is no right or wrong. Your taste. My taste. Anyone’s taste. It is largely about where the music takes us.

 

Of course many songwriters and artists blend current tastes with other sounds, genres and styles they like and are influenced by, therefor introducing their listeners to those genres. Indeed, the gentle resurgence of interest in Jazz a couple of years ago was due to this.
 

Artists and writers who blend have a good chance of making a living because they work within the current trend.

 

Other Artists and writers choose separation. There is what they do for work, to earn money, and what they do for private pleasure. They too have a good chance of making a living because they work within the current trend.

 

Other artists again simply revel in what is “on trend”. Often this comes from a place of ignorance. Such people have always existed, in every trend. These people too have a good chance of making a living because they work within the current trend.

 

Some choose to do one of the above until they get to a position where they have a following, and then gradually bring in the music they love. They are in a position of influence. They can reach people. As long as they move over thoughtfully there is a possibility they can use that influence and keep making a living while they re-educate their listeners. These artists too have a good chance of making a living because they work within the current trend.

 

The artists and writers who ignore trend, and make no concessions to trend really, really struggle. Often they seem to get angry because they thought that they would make a difference, but with little influence and little thought to growing their influence they will keep talking to small, if not smaller audiences. 
 

That is just the way it is.

 

Chances are they already know all this, but for some reason hoped it would be different. That bitterness often comes from the realisation that it isn’t different for them, or their music.

 

Luckily, they can change any old time. If they choose to.

 

If they choose not to, they can hardly complain.
 

If you happen to make this choice, to ignore trend, to think it doesn’t apply to you and your music, or that somehow by having learned a bunch of off-trend stuff because of personal preference that you are somehow owed a living by on-trend people, perhaps you can help me? I have some mountains near my house that I feel are in the wrong place. I just need a few willing volunteers to push them to better positions.  That sounds like an ideal match of character to task! Please drop me a line to apply.

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[john]

Oh and btw, I completely get making money from other purists. It’s just that you have to accept they are a small pool of people. Also that a percentage of the general populous will be interested in what you do.... but you have to accept that it will be a trickle of people. It’s not personal. Disagree? Can I interest you in pushing this mountain?

[arty]

Joel, love it, heart rendering and to the core. More shows here in the music capital of Australia, Melbourne are tribute crap, It draws more people than originals, why?, the thoughtless generation are the ones who spend the money  buying shots of whiskey and put profit over the bar.

 

It is what is, for better or worse, the parody of music it seems is cheap and fast. there is still opportunity to shine and be true to yourself.  

 

For me I am what I am, but do believe by bending a little and staying true to the craft there is still a market for talented people to break through. You would not believe how many times I heard Valerie in 2019, 2018, 2017 etc, is it as good as any Eta James song, doubtful, but that is what they want to hear.

 

Hell Nirvana did a Robert Johnstone Cover, In the Pines, very few of the generation knew it wasn't an original but have heard the cover of the cover played and attributed to Curt.

 

It is a disgrace but always has been, Dolly Parton was asked to sign over the rights of I Will Always Love You on the morning Elvis was going to record it. That is probably around 20 Million $ worth of royalties now.

 

The audience is isn't right but they dictate 

[John W Selleck]

What people request in karaoke is a good example of peoples tastes today. When I go out and sing, which I do a few times a week, I hear Sweet Caroline, You Never Even Called Me By My Name, Achy Breaky Heart, and the like, ad nauseum.I sing tons of songs other people don't, and many they will never sing, and I rarely do them like the originals. I still make new fans every time I sing. I know musicians look down on karaoke, but it is what I can do onstage, without having canned tracks of my songs. And I am still an applause junkie.

[arty]

Ha just had to pen a song (Things Gotta Change) after reading this before, inspirational!! Will the world change probably not lol but the odd rant is a good thing, it keeps perspective, its passion its truth, we are only ungodly arrays of carbon based molecules who by some means have electrical charges pulsing in our heads and have formed a society based on this, no wonder things aren't right!

 

John W S, it is a case of give them what they want, no problem with that at all, appreciate more that you use songs out of the current sphere and gee there are a lot of great songs that aren't played anywhere now. Wildfire, Seasons in the Sun etc. and could give you a 1000 Aussie songs that are sensational as well which are proven players to an audience. Some you will know others maybe not, my son does a cover of Matt Corby's Brother and the room jumps like popcorn cooking on a stove! (the lyrics aren't that strong in my opinion, Matt Corby was the X Factor winner who told them to stuff it and went solo) Mitchell is an interesting point, went to England to try and make it, spent two years gigging and recorded three singles but the market as John points out requires all the stars to be in line and then only maybe you have any chance, he now plays covers with a few originals and gets $400 for a gig, is it the dream no, but a good substitute!

 

 

Brother (live) - Matt Corby - Triple J Radio - Bing video

 

Australia's Ultimate Songs - The 100 Greatest Hits Of The Century (2000, CD) | Discogs

 

 

That said there are a lot of hit songs that are covers of course

 

33 Songs You Didn't Know Were Covers (Part 1) - YouTube

 

 

 

mitch.bullen | Mitch Bullen | Free Listening on SoundCloud

[MikeRobinson]

Arty, reading your earlier post about "the Intellectual Disability center that you work at," the thought really struck me that the creative possibilities that might come from being and working at such a place might prove to be pure gold.

 

Why?  Well, because:  "is 'what we do' really about us, or about the listener?"  And, if it truly is about "the listener," do we really know who "the listener" is?  It's terribly easy to confuse the two.  But, in your profession, you are very-regularly confronted by people who are not at all like yourself, as you (in your own way) seek to minister to them.  You can hone your songs against an "edge" that most of us will never encounter.

[arty]

6 hours ago, MikeRobinson said:

Arty, reading your earlier post about "the Intellectual Disability center that you work at," the thought really struck me that the creative possibilities that might come from being and working at such a place might prove to be pure gold.

 

Why?  Well, because:  "is 'what we do' really about us, or about the listener?"  And, if it truly is about "the listener," do we really know who "the listener" is?  It's terribly easy to confuse the two.  But, in your profession, you are very-regularly confronted by people who are not at all like yourself, as you (in your own way) seek to minister to them.  You can hone your songs against an "edge" that most of us will never encounter.

Thanks Mike, you are absolutely right, it is pure gold.

 

There are the occasional platitudes but the reaction is instant and pure, they might not be fussed about a clever turn of phrase etc. but the level of understanding of some is incredibly perceptive.

 

I have often joked that I can improve every one of my songs  and make them 100% better, simply by having a single hit song, but at work, the songs would remain exactly the same irrespective of achieving such an attainment.

 

It also reinforced  a rather boring paper I once read on the Conscious versus Subconscious in regard of taking in information. The subconscious is much like the disability centre participant, they take it ALL in unadultured and it decides does it work or not.

 

The conscious takes in much much less, processes it through your likes and dislikes the emotions in play etc. You may actually miss lines while the slow processing takes place.

 

Then all of a sudden you get this feeling you don't like it, you don't know why, just don't. It is a flag sent up by the subconscious that the thing doesn't make sense or something in this is wrong. But if your conscious overrides it because say in this case, the singer is hot, flag ignored.

 

Music is at the core of the social being...

[arty]

Here is one REFINED at work,  the BAAAAHHHS are much greater now! Lyrics are on the webpage.

 

 

 

[MikeRobinson]

"And, Arty ... look at the very precious thing that you are able to do ... for them!"

 

They're all human beings, all of them locked (without their consent) in the prison known as "intellectual disability."  Don't you suppose that they know that ... even though they can't express it?

 

Here, you bring them "the universal."  MUSIC!

 

God bless you.

 

"Music is ... God's own gift."  Don't anyone out there ever forget that.

 

... hmmm ... might that previous sentence become a song?

Edited January 13, 2021 by MikeRobinson

[John W Selleck]

I want to amend the the flippant answer I gave early in this thread that said "Money/Chicks". The whole truth is I know I will probably never recoup the money I have put into writing songs. At 71, the only way I get chicks is if they think I have money! So, what am I in it for? I haven't given up on having more than 1 hit song. I love to write. It amazes me, at least, that I can put words together in a way that tells stories, or touches people. Testimony. I am a Christian, and though I don't preach to people, songs are my way of doing that. And again, applause, whether written, oral, or real applause, it is still the best drug on the market.

[Jim622]

No real ambitions. Just the thrill of trying to see my idea become something I feel has some musical value, mostly to me, but it is nice to get a little validation from other like minded people, like the people on this site. It would also be nice to improve a little with each attempt. Self satisfaction I guess.

Edited February 2, 2022 by Jim622

[Rarignac]

It is important what an author wants, is looking for, believes in.  Compositional skills are important, and a sense of self, a perspective, philosophy, worldview.  But what is interesting is that for listeners that don't know a songwriter, what counts the most is the title of a given song.  If they like the title, they will give a listen, if they don't know what to make of it or find it mundane and boring they'll never give it a second.  Despite the best advice of Bo Diddley, people judge books by their covers.  

[Stuart Scholes]

As a guitarist of 25 years, I really came at songwriting with the semi-subconscious intention of using my songs as a vehicle to allow me to showcase my guitar playing. I realise now, having spent a bit of time thinking about it, and doing research on the subject, that I'm no longer bound into that box.

 

I grew up with a strong blues influence, which led me towards the guitar. A lot of blues music is simple in songwriting form (if you'll please excuse the reductive, generic approach I'm taking for the purposes of this exercise). Especially the older stuff, you can write 6 lines of lyric about "your woman" leaving, or drinking, or needing to "find another woman". While these sort of lyrics may have their place, I realise now that my creative beast could never be sated by 3 chords and 6 lines of lyrics about the same thing everyone else is talking about.

 

There are so many good songwriters out there, even in the age of disposable music, and I'd like to feel that I could one day count myself among them. If I make money, that would be great, it'd sure beat my day job. I'd love to make a living doing something musically related. However, I have a job, a family, relative security, so I have no NEED to focus on the financial or fame element of music.

 

What I really have the intention of doing in my songwriting is:

 

1. Trying to express how I feel and sharing my perspective on life

2. Connecting with people

3. Creating music that I can enjoy sharing, whether digitally or live

 

Probably in that order, although it can flip on a dime. 😆

Edited February 17, 2022 by Stuart Scholes
Grammar and thought changes :D

[john]

On 2/17/2022 at 6:35 AM, Stuart Scholes said:

As a guitarist of 25 years, I really came at songwriting with the semi-subconscious intention of using my songs as a vehicle to allow me to showcase my guitar playing. I realise now, having spent a bit of time thinking about it, and doing research on the subject, that I'm no longer bound into that box.

 

I grew up with a strong blues influence, which led me towards the guitar. A lot of blues music is simple in songwriting form (if you'll please excuse the reductive, generic approach I'm taking for the purposes of this exercise). Especially the older stuff, you can write 6 lines of lyric about "your woman" leaving, or drinking, or needing to "find another woman". While these sort of lyrics may have their place, I realise now that my creative beast could never be sated by 3 chords and 6 lines of lyrics about the same thing everyone else is talking about.

 

There are so many good songwriters out there, even in the age of disposable music, and I'd like to feel that I could one day count myself among them. If I make money, that would be great, it'd sure beat my day job. I'd love to make a living doing something musically related. However, I have a job, a family, relative security, so I have no NEED to focus on the financial or fame element of music.

 

What I really have the intention of doing in my songwriting is:

 

1. Trying to express how I feel and sharing my perspective on life

2. Connecting with people

3. Creating music that I can enjoy sharing, whether digitally or live

 

Probably in that order, although it can flip on a dime. 😆

Now you are stepping out of that box, it’s going to be interesting to see where your journey takes you.

 

As a writing and arrangement exercise, I would suggest creating at least one song with no guitar in it… at all. That way you force the step out the box… if you can do a few like that (even if you add guitar later, or do them under a pseudonym) then you will surprised at how liberating it can be, to rely on your underlying musical skills, without the crutch of your own primary performance skill.

[Mahesh]

On 2/17/2022 at 12:05 PM, Stuart Scholes said:

As a guitarist of 25 years, I really came at songwriting with the semi-subconscious intention of using my songs as a vehicle to allow me to showcase my guitar playing. I realise now, having spent a bit of time thinking about it, and doing research on the subject, that I'm no longer bound into that box.

 

I grew up with a strong blues influence, which led me towards the guitar. A lot of blues music is simple in songwriting form (if you'll please excuse the reductive, generic approach I'm taking for the purposes of this exercise). Especially the older stuff, you can write 6 lines of lyric about "your woman" leaving, or drinking, or needing to "find another woman". While these sort of lyrics may have their place, I realise now that my creative beast could never be sated by 3 chords and 6 lines of lyrics about the same thing everyone else is talking about.

 

There are so many good songwriters out there, even in the age of disposable music, and I'd like to feel that I could one day count myself among them. If I make money, that would be great, it'd sure beat my day job. I'd love to make a living doing something musically related. However, I have a job, a family, relative security, so I have no NEED to focus on the financial or fame element of music.

 

What I really have the intention of doing in my songwriting is:

 

1. Trying to express how I feel and sharing my perspective on life

2. Connecting with people

3. Creating music that I can enjoy sharing, whether digitally or live

 

Probably in that order, although it can flip on a dime. 😆

 

@Stuart Scholes, I can resonate with that so much despite not sharing the exact background.

 

For me, the idea of making music when younger was very goal oriented - of sound, skill & success. But years into doing this, music making has become an activity of journaling my mind (going inward into yourself) and expressing/resonating out to the world. I see what the song does out there in the world like its one of my kids. lol I don't have any hard feelings once I've done my part for it and it's out there. (I try lol)

[Stuart Scholes]

Nice comments guys, thank you. John, I'll try that.

[GregB]

On 11/6/2020 at 11:10 AM, MikeRobinson said:

I just want to write something that I'd like to listen to.

 

Hi Mike

 

Yep - especially when you have to listen to it for hours on end during practice/development, recording, mixing and never-ending editing    

I think this is one of the reasons why many home-produced singer-songwriter albums are solid ... they've withstood endless critique.

 

Greg

[arty]

Been off for a few months, and getting things sorted. We are now geting music back to the pubs in Melbourne and have been forcing myself to out and see many more than I want.

For instance saw a performer that I did not really like his songs at open mics but went to his gig to support him anyway. They were the typical leftist style with everything wrong in the world, no solutions and having a go at BLAMING everyone. Chatting to him and he tells he is doing well on the Festival circuits, lucky I was sitting down!!! 

 

That said, the target is perfect, they are the kids out on every demonstration / cause and do spend their lives wailing of historical failings rather than being progressive and trying to maintain solutions or willing to accpet that any progress has been made, so the songs would resonate. 

 

So are his songs bad or unfunny, I AM NOT THE AUDIENCE.

 

Could the songs be made better, sure, even without changing the messages, constructing a song with minimal waffling is a start (seems to be a problem with a lot of these songs, there is so much wrong...).

 

Sure if we the authors dont like the song, it is very unlikely we will take it out to the world. So critique one is us, but then we have to accept others perceptions of the song.

Whether right or wrong, if they are not played to their target audience, it matters naught in most cases but there are some great songs that cross audience lines.