Alt-ish Playlist on Spotify

[john]

Alt-ish Playlist on Spotify

Check out our latest update to the Alt-ish playlist….

 

https://www.songstuff.co.uk/alt-ish-playlist-on-spotify/

 

Help us to help independent artists…. Like, Share, Comment. 

[MikeRobinson]

John, how is this marvelous new .uk area integrated into the .com area that we view "here in the States?"  The URL doesn't even seem to be linked at all into the "site taxonomy."  This is a wonderful angle for the site that urgently needs to be properly developed – internationally.

[john]

Hi Mike

 

It isn’t integrated as such, deliberately. There is method to my madness…

 

• Songstuff is writer and artist facing. All it’s audience and the marketing around it is writer/artist facing.
• Songstuff U.K. is being developed to be entirely audience/fan facing. All it’s marketing will be fan facing.

 

Why? Because we are building an outlet for Songstuff artists to help them reach and build a real audience. Way too many music sites make the mistake of integrating these two audiences, but it’s a bad idea. It doesn’t help build fans, it helps build follower lists, but they are not the same thing.

 

Ask artists on almost any OMD. Weirdly it’s a similar problem for most artists on Twitter too. It’s really easy to build follower list on artist communities. I follow you, and you follow me, The problem is 99% of the time they never even listened to your music. They are not fans of your music in any shape or form. The common symptom of this is really dead lists. You do a release and the same small group of people respond, mostly fairly Coolly. 

When musicians/writers/artists encounter an artist, it greatly depends on how and where they encounter them. If they encounter them on a music platform they are largely doing so in a more transactional sense. I’ll scratch your back if you scratch mine. For some it’s more mercenary than that. There are some who are looking for music, of course there are… but most are looking for feedback on their songs, looking for followers etc. Even when they encounter good other musicians, they often do so as an equal. They behave differently than fans.

 

On platforms like Twitter, artists often build enclaves. They band together because building followers from other artists is easy. Unfortunately many treat Twitter like Songstuff forums. They post ideas, half done tracks… and they interact with each other almost exclusively, because they don’t know how to talk to fans. If they talk to fellow artists like they might talk to fans they think they will be shot down. They may well be. There is no other environment quite to responsible for stripping artists of that magic as Twitter. The platform itself is excellent. The problem is how artists use it.

 

It’s very like the gig issue. If artists keep trying to fill out their audience with friends and family, they never find their real audience. They become increasingly disappointed by the level of no-shows, the gaps in the audience etc. They also become increasingly disappointed by the lack of response. Your grandmother is unlikely to be a big death metal fan.
 

To really get somewhere artists need to find and engage a real audience, in the hope of finding real fans.

 

Even listeners who encounter artists on an artist platform react a little differently. A little digging and they find earlier versions of songs, demo recordings, artists interacting with artists… it robs some of the magic. Indeed sometimes listeners get inundated with music spam, from artists looking for easy social follows. For listeners that kills the platform.

 

When fans encounter your music on a listening platform, they do so as listeners, first and foremost. They then treat artists like music creators. They react to the artist like listeners the world over. Because they are listeners they actually stand a chance of becoming a genuine fan.

 

When artists encounter artists on a listening platform, especially one with no sense of quid pro quo, they do so as listeners. There is no transactional sense to the arrangement.

 

We will still have a site playlist that is writer/artist facing, because it helps artists find a small percentage of fans, but it also helps find collaborators and establish a sense of who’s who and aids building connections etc. We will still build an audience for that

 

Building Songstuff U.K. allows us to build audiences. Our plan is to showcase independent music. However we plan to generally have mixed playlists, made up of largely independent artists, some of whom will be the best of Songstuff artists. However, we plan to include mainstream artists too.

 

Why? We want the best artists playing their best music, because that is what the audience expects. If we try to add sub-par songs we would not be helping the sub-par artist. The entire audience might drop off, not just for that artist, but for all on the playlist. Possibly for all on the site. We would also be giving the sub-par artist a false perspective. So we want high quality songs. Our audience expects it.

 

If we end up being inundated with brilliant recordings of brilliant songs, we may well not need as many independent artists from across the internet. For Songstuff it is a double edged sword. We want Songstuffers to produce brilliant music, but in featuring artists that are not on Songstuff… we might attract new members for Songstuff.

 

So that is why we mix Songstuff artists with other independent artists.

 

Why a few mainstream artists? Our responsibility is to create awesome playlists, to showcase indie music. Mainstream artists have fans. If some of those fans find our playlists (which we will do all we can do in that direction) then that might expose them to some of the other awesome artists on the playlist. It’s a win - win.

 

Why U.K.? We already had the domain, but importantly we stripped back Songstuff branding. We will make artists aware of the connection. For general audience we will focus on the Independent Music Stage (look no Songstuff). Indeed the general Songstuff reference us via the abbreviation SSUK, which we intend using as a marketing tool. It is very much a listening platform. A music blog. It has it’s own social portals. It is already building it’s own audience. Admittedly all are near the beginning. Some very near. But they will grow.

 

Does the U.K aspect matter? I don’t think so. We are not marketing it exclusively to a U.K. audience. Exactly the opposite. We are also building music blogs on other platforms, to showcase these playlists, sometimes genre specific sites. We will likely also create a dot com site or two. Eventually.

 

So we need help promoting our playlists. The more listeners the Independent Music Stage gets, the more of a potential asset it is to all Songstuff members. The connection for artists is still very much there. It has the potential of being a massive asset.

 

We plan to treat all artists the same in the public eyes. Features, interviews, Pinterest galleries, webcam performances, podcasts. Maybe even radio. It’s not a small undertaking, but even if we can just do some of this, it stands to be a great benefit.

 

We will eventually be looking for show hosts, interviewers and other help. Personally I think it’s an exciting opportunity. It gives Songstuff a very unique angle. It gives members some real end use possibilities.

 

We’ve given it a lot of thought and think we’ve caught a lot. We’ve spotted a lot of possibilities and found ways to maximise benefits and minimise issues. Honestly the hardest part is the volume of effort involved. Still, if anyone has feedback or comment it’s very useful, and very much appreciated. Even if we’ve thought of something before I am happy, it is still of use. New ideas just enrich an already rich seam. New issues spotted give us a chance to deal with them.

 

When I say “help us to help you” it is very true. The scale of success will depend on us getting help or not.

 

Oh, also, a part of song development on Songstuff will be added, for songs submitted for consideration, we will try our best to feedback constructive comments, to help artists to evolves songs and production to a level that SSUK will feature a song or add it to our playlists.

 

Cheers

 

John

 

PS Sorry to reply with a book!

[Rianslam 27]

great 

[john]

5 hours ago, Popthree said:

There are song stuff artists on your altish playlist? Who? I haven't seen Wayne coyne around here....and I can't imagine he needs my help either.

 

 

 

Did you read the explanation I gave in the post?

 

I specifically explained these are not indie-only playlists, and it isn't the first time:

 

On 11/29/2021 at 3:16 AM, john said:

Building Songstuff U.K. allows us to build audiences. Our plan is to showcase independent music. However we plan to generally have mixed playlists, made up of largely independent artists, some of whom will be the best of Songstuff artists. However, we plan to include mainstream artists too.

 

Why? We want the best artists playing their best music, because that is what the audience expects. If we try to add sub-par songs we would not be helping the sub-par artist. The entire audience might drop off, not just for that artist, but for all on the playlist. Possibly for all on the site. We would also be giving the sub-par artist a false perspective. So we want high quality songs. Our audience expects it.

 

If we end up being inundated with brilliant recordings of brilliant songs, we may well not need as many independent artists from across the internet. For Songstuff it is a double edged sword. We want Songstuffers to produce brilliant music, but in featuring artists that are not on Songstuff… we might attract new members for Songstuff.

 

So that is why we mix Songstuff artists with other independent artists.

 

Why a few mainstream artists? Our responsibility is to create awesome playlists, to showcase indie music. Mainstream artists have fans. If some of those fans find our playlists (which we will do all we can do in that direction) then that might expose them to some of the other awesome artists on the playlist. It’s a win - win.

 

 

Listeners want to hear good music. Yes we need to have artists creating good quality music, but we need a listener base, otherwise it doesn't help indie artists. So, the playlist will have Songstuff artists, indie artists who are not members of Songstuff and mainstream artists.

 

How many playlists do you think we would fill, right now, if we restricted ourselves to only Songstuff artists who submit songs?

 

How many listeners do you think we would attract if we only had Songstuff artists? (incidentally we do have one playlist that is only Songstuff artists)

 

How many NEW listeners do you think we would introduce to each artist if we didn't have bigger, more popular artists on theb playlist(indie or mainstream)?

 

We don't add mainstream artists because they need your support. We add them because when their fans turn up, and they will, they get introduced to some great indie artists.

 

We ask for your support just now in building a listener base, playing, liking, sharing, commenting.... because THAT is the asset that benefits our artists. A listener base for our members.

 

[john]

1 minute ago, Popthree said:

goodness.  i didn't mean to make you angry.  i was just asking if any songstuff contributors were so lucky as to be included in your playlist.  coincidentally, i did read your really long post.  what specifically are you referring to about it that would apparently answer the incredibly stupid quesion i asked?

 

 

 

I wasn't angry at all. I didn't mean it to come over as me being angry. Life's too short for that. Funny how sometimes the written language can come over with unintended emotion?

 

I didn't say you asked a stupid question either, although I did have the impression you perhaps hadn't read my post (I write long posts and understand that people do tune out). Yet you didn't ask the question that you did in your reply, at least not in the same way. My original post had points in it (quoted) that answered what I thought you were asking and commenting on. I thought you were being critical, but I wasn't angry, I just thought you were unaware of what we were trying to do.

 

There are indies on the playlist, but I need to go back and look to see who is a member of Songstuff or not. I know a couple of our playlists only have one or two. I just removed one from Alt-ish earlier because the video is now marked as private and no longer available.

[john]

Reading the first couple of lines back with a colder inner voice I can see why it might be taken as angry! Sorry for that.

[john]

10 minutes ago, Popthree said:

glad you weren't angry.  usually when someone replies with "did you read..." they are kind of being huffy.  maybe not in this case.

 

there seems to be a vague message here suggesting that some of the song stuff artists are going to be considered for playlists and such so i thought maybe that was already happening and i wasn't aware of it.  not that i think any of my stuff is worthy of such consideration, i was just thinking maybe there are some small success stories here i had not heard about. (other than mahesh)

 

 

 

There are other Songstuff artists on our playlists, I just can't remember on this one. The "Synthergy" playlist I know has a few. Richard Tracey (Jigsaw Sequence) and me (Deep Red Sea) being a couple I can think of. I think Fused is also a member of Songstuff but not active. I think another couple of artists on that playlist are. That song by Deep Red Sea is also on the "Alt-ish" playlist. Ben Poole, Finn Arild Aasheim on "Rock It!" and Hurshy Kalsi, Red Porch Kid Music on Turn Up The AC. Iain Forbes on "Steeped in Country", Steve Altonian, Kaige Evans and Just1L on "Hot Rock"

[john]

25 minutes ago, Popthree said:

Can't say I've seen any of these people on the forum but I guess maybe they just don't contribute. Maybe one of our active members will be considered some day.

@FinnArild used to be a member of staff. @Just1L was on the site a few weeks ago, as was @SteveA (Steve Altonian). Some used to be regulars others occasional visits. Steve Mueske was also regularly playlisted until he pulled his catalogue.

 

I would be very happy to have more submissions. I am sure they will come as we move forward.

[James Anderson]

I   AM  GETING  CONSIDERED    WITH   the  A team   FOR  THE  HITSONGCHALLENGE   FOR  THIS  SORT  OF  THING  WOULD  YOU  CONSIDER  ME  ACTIVE    POPTHREE  

QUOTE    WE   PASS    BUT   NEVER   MEET

[Peggy]

Here's a collection I've put together over the years.  I basically use the Showcase board for my selections.  This one is all Songstuff members.

 

but I also have a blog of Peggy's picks which is indie with 2 or 3 member songs of the 10.

 

[john]

I would also say, Songstuff artists feature least on our YouTube channels because a lower percentage of Songstuffers seem to create videos. It’s a great pity because they make some excellent music.

[Peggy]

4 minutes ago, Peggy said:

I basically use the Showcase board for my selections. 

Just checked the Showcase board and it looks like I have some member pieces up for consideration

 

[Peggy]

For the YouTube playlist.. I promote them on our Twitter and Facebook accounts and Songstuff UK (SSUK).. we also  have done this promotion for the Spotify and Soundcloud playlists.

[john]

13 hours ago, Popthree said:

It seems like a great way to promote the website would be to promote it's artists somehow. .. Give folks an incentive to participate... Seems like you might get more mileage out of that than asking people to share a Spotify playlist of established indie artists we may have never even heard before.. but hey, what do I know?  

That is the plan, promoting Songstuff artists. However there are several factors. Different artists have different goals and different needs. In meeting those needs I have the following goals:

 

Songstuff Goals

 

1. We want to aid in discovery
   1. placing the best indie music in front of potential fans. 
2. We want to extend the artist’s reach, by helping them to reach a fresh, new audience.
3. We want to create something that is truly an asset to the indie community
   1. somewhere that that artists aim to be included on
   2. and have a sense of achievement when they do. 
4. We want indie artists to be viewed and treated like any other artist.
5. We want to create something that helps artists to progress and helps fulfil their sense of purpose
6. We want to build something that helps Indies
   1. to gain exposure
   2. and to grow their fan base
7. We want to create opportunity for artists
8. We want a platform that allows artists to feature videos, and other products too.
9. We do not want to be contained within a typical indie artist bubble. That does almost nothing to help indie artists, other than a minimal stroke of the ego. Artists simply don’t value it.
   1. To be valued by artists we need a large listener base.
   2. We need to NOT do it like everyone else.

 

SSUK and Independent Music Stage Goals

 

1. We want to build credible playlists with a large reach to an audience
   1. of engaged, enthusiastic listeners
   2. who want to share the music they find.
2. We want to mix established artists and breaking artists
   1. so that fans discover new and exciting music
   2. finding new artists whose music they can fall in love with.
3. We want to feature artists on our playlists
   1. in interviews
   2. and eventually webcam performances
   3. and livestreams
4. We need to be focused on listener experience.

 

 

Background

Some background should help.

 

Songstuff is for songwriters and artists. For years we ran playlists that featured Songstuff artists only. Some artists supported it when they were added to the playlist. They didn’t largely support it if they weren’t on it, or when they were still on it in the weeks after being added. I have to say this is a very typical experience of indie artists. If they encounter artists as a listener, they usually treat them like any listener would. If they encounter artists as an artist, an equal, they go into a quid pro quo mode. They like and follow artists in return for the artist liking and following them. Often not even bothering to listen to the song. Songstuff seems to get treated by artists like that too.

 

Playlist Audiences

 

Playlists need listeners. Other artists largely (not all) suck as listeners or fans. Just like moving beyond friends and family, artists need to find their fans from within the ranks of the general listening public. That is why SSUK is a fan facing site. It is a music site for fans.

 

As any playlist goes, they need an audience, people who listen.
 

For artists wanting to be discovered, they need to be added to playlists with an audience, an engaged audience, who will listen and share songs they discover with other listeners. A false audience of like-exchangers is of limited use.

 

A playlist that relies on the artists themselves to grow it will end up becoming an unresponsive false asset. I see many artists themselves with the same issue. They release songs that go nowhere. Not because their music isn’t good, but because their following is largely built on other artists.

 

Chicken and Egg

 

There is a chicken and egg scenario. If we had massive followings for our playlists and channels, artists would be more interested in supporting it. If we rely on artists to grow the playlist audience, it is painfully slow, unreliable and even if you get followers they are rarely listeners. Of course they can still contribute to building a playlist following… but they are the additional benefit, not the target audience.

 

Relying on artists to play songs is problematic. While some are very supportive, a larger percentage only seem interested in themselves.

 

My point is, relying on artists to grow the audience for a playlist is a big problem. By all means include them as part of your strategy, just don’t make it your entire strategy of even a large part of it.

 

We want to build a genuine audience. Listeners. To do that we need to cater to the needs and wants of listeners, in order to create an asset that is worthwhile for the artists.

The Artists

 

Largely listeners don’t care that you are an indie band. Not anymore. They just want good music.
 

To build a playlist that people will see as credible, it needs good quality music. There is plenty of great indie music out there, recorded and produced to a professional standard. Some of those artists are on Songstuff. Most are not.

 

Many artists on Songstuff are on the route to being pro quality. That is a journey we, collectively, can help them with. Once they have a polished, radio ready track, we need platforms to promote their music on. Songstuff has good reach with an artist audience. It’s listener base is largely artists. We can and will help with getting Songstuff artist music on playlists and blogs run by others… but it makes sense that if we can build audiences of listeners, it would be a huge asset to Songstuff members.

 

Building Playlist Audiences

 

If Songstuff artists want to help, they can share playlists, and play the playlists. If they don’t want to, honestly, it isn’t a huge surprise.

 

Bringing in indie artists not on Songstuff there is the hope they bring their audience and that hopefully a good chunk of their audience are listeners, but that is only true for larger indie artists.

 

The best source of an audience is similar genre mainstream artists. Mainstream artists have huge followings, almost all are listeners. A proper audience. That’s a huge part of what they bring to the playlist. An engaged and enthusiastic audience of listeners. If your song is of a similar genre and placed alongside massive artists, then your song has a potentially significant boost in exposure, to people who are likely to like your music.

 

By including mainstream and larger indie artists and promoting our playlists to listeners we stand the best chance of growing our listener base.

 

To get artists to support this will take good communication and a process of education. Many will never get behind it. Then again, even with Songstuff only artists, artist support was minimal and transactional.

 

The majority of our efforts to build a listener base is off Songstuff. It markets to a different audience and much if it you will not see.

 

[john]

2 hours ago, Popthree said:

that all sounds great john.  i hope you still have a forum with contributing members when that playlist starts to catch on.  i really do. 

Do you think we might not? It is of course very possible.

 

Developing playlists is not something that is a full-time pursuit, or something we do exclusively while the forums decline. We do a helluva lot to keep our forums running. I say that because it means everything we do means that we are dividing our time, trying to support, develop, add features of our community… while still having some kind of life and work on our own music. Plus we do all the hidden stuff like server admin and off site promotion.
 

The point is, no matter what way we go, we make choices. We try and support something, it takes away from something else. You yourself suggested a great way to promote the site is to promote the artists… and other than promotion within and on Songstuff, and on our social media portals, which I am very happy to do. I completely agree.

 

Playlists seems like a good way to promote artists… though I am happy to consider alternatives. Every time we plan tasks we try to see how we can double up overlapping efforts so we get the maximum return on any effort. We look at how we as staff can do something once and then get more returns… so for example, putting together a long list of interview questions which we plan to use for artists to self-interview themselves and then send us the video.

 

Certainly achieving any of it is hard work and not straight forward. But then, once upon a time the idea of building a site like Songstuff would have seemed impossible and, going by comments, a daunting idea for most people. Yet, here it is. Just like I had a concept and plan with a load of options back then, I have a concept, plan and bunch of ideas now.

 

It’s far from perfect. Much of this is simply trying to help writers, artists and producers, in whatever way we can. Education, opportunity, interaction and engagement, exposure,  tools… fun?

 

Playlists aI think are a trending opportunity for artists. Whatever comes after, if we want to catch that wave, I am sure it will be easier to make the most of by building on whatever platform we build with current trends, otherwise we always drift along the bottom… which is perfectly ok… but as a community, missing all such opportunities and trends does little to help keep our community attractive.
 

Will all the various initiatives work? Who knows? But if we don’t try…

[James Anderson]

I   HAVE  TO   say   john  is  on  the  right   track   on  this   one   sounds   like  to   me    he  has  put  a   lot  of  thought  into   this   there  is  a  saying   if  you  always   do  what  you   have  always   done    you   will  always  get   what  you   have  always   got   .   if  ever  there  was  a  time  to  break  the   mould    its   now  .some  of  my   ideas   are  going  to  be  that  mind   blowing   when  they  come   out   and  are  tried  the   idea   I  AM  WORKING  on  at   the  moment  is   jimi  hendrix   has  a   brother    leon   hendrix     I  AM  TRYING  to get  in contact  with   him   I   WANT  TO  TRANS FORM   him  in  to  the  next  guitar   hero   .he  has  played  guitar  for  25  years    his  singing   needs  a  total  over  haul  .he  has  never  got much  or  anything  out  of   jimi     money  .  I  WANT  TO  SHOW   HIM   how  to  change  all   this  .I     HAVE   COMPOSED  A  SONG  THAT   will  have  leon   being  able  to  go  on  stage    and  by  the  time  he done    the  song  .it  will  have  spread  around the  world   hendrix   fans   have  a   new    hendrix  to  follow   . as   a  song  writer   who   wants   to   compete  against  the  best   songwriters    out  there    .I  WOULDNT  HAVE  IT  ANY  OTHER   WAY   .   THE  ONLY   PERSON  I   AINT  INTERESTED  IN  COMPETING   WITH   IS   ME   . if  you  have  done   your  best  at  writing  a  song   thats  it.   I  WOULD  LIKE  TO  SEE  on  song stuff    a  board  that   singers   and  bands   that   are starting   to  see  there  fame   decline   let songstuff   songwriters    help  them  have  the  songs  they need  to  get   there   bands  on  the  way   up    .I   HOPE Popthree   not  only  does  this  sound  good  to   you   but  as  a  songwriter   you  are  up  to  the  challenge   and  as   far  as  having   to  go  into  a   professional  recording  studio    if  you  have  a  song  you  think  that  good    there  is  nothing  wrong   with  putting  your  money  where  your   mouth   is    I  have  no   qualms  in   doing  so  for  a  song   I believe   in

[john]

29 minutes ago, Popthree said:

Maybe so @James Anderson I guess a good follow-up question for @john may be, how long has the alt playlist plan been in motion and what kind of returns on investment are you realizing?

It was started last year, If I remember correctly, but more or less parked while we put other infrastructure in place. The topic we are replying to is only the second time it has been promoted, the first being before we put that infrastructure in place. In other words it is still very much in it’s early days. I don’t expect to see much return until it has been going 6 months to 1 year of regular activity.

 

You are right about the forums. They are quiet. Very, in comparison to how busy they were. That is something affecting many forums, though I am sure at least some of it is uniquely Songstuff.

 

Here’s the thing… features attract people to places. Those features don’t just happen. Someone has to put them in place. Someone has to connect here to all the somewheres. Otherwise no one would have come here, and there would be zero chance of new people finding it.

 

You said you don’t see the point. That you can’t see how a playlist of established brands will bring people to Songstuff. It isn’t a single hop for a start. Just as a trip to the moon wasn’t “Day 1: Jump in spaceship and fly to the moon. Day 2: Enjoying being on the moon”. Internet, or real world for that matter, doesn’t all revolve around using off the shelf solutions to achieve off the shelf goals. Ok, some does, but a lot require a creative process to take place. For assets to be designed, developed and built and then nursed into being effective and hopefully flourishing.

 

If we build a playlist (yes there are other possible assets but just go with me that playlists, like mixtapes, are a popular way to consume music), that

 

1. Features only unknowns…

 

would you rate that as easier or harder to build a following, than a playlist that

 

2. features only the very top, most in demand acts?

 

True the second is likely to have more competition, but the fact there is demand for that music automatically means it is more likely to succeed. For number 1 to succeed you first have to create demand. Not impossible, but our initial mission is to create a popular playlist and to add only the best indie music to it.

 

If we add sub par music to it, what happens? Listener experience tanks and people stop following the playlist. By doing one sub par artist to the list, we jeopardise the entire asset to everyone (at the extreme end).

 

In terms of the principle of the point of having established stars… think about it…

 

The real world of venues, band tours, support acts etc, is founded on the same principle. Let me explain.

 

You are in a band. There’s an unknown venue, no one knows it or how to find ut. No band has ever played there. No one has ever had a drink there. That’s one choice.

 

The other choice is a venue that loads of big bands have played. It has a capacity of 1000 clients. Last night a massive band making similar genre music to you played. Tomorrow night another similarly massive band playing complimentary genre music is playing. Tonight another big act is playing and woah…. You are a named support act. You get to play your music to 1000 fans of the kind of music you make. This venue has a reputation of discovering the next best music, a pedigree of many many successful bands that came through. Now you have a chance to be there. Alongside massive bands. All of which means the place will be full.

 

Now that venue fills because it has a reputation, built upon a history of big bands playing there. Fans go there to see unknown bands because the venue has a reputation for promoting brilliant music.

 

You may prefer the quiet intimacy of the first venue, but growing a listener base there is very hard…. No one goes there, the venue has No reputation for music etc. 

 

I am sure you can understand, had previous people not played the second venue, and now big artists, it would very likely attract less customers. More nights with unsold tickets. Indeed one of the things that makes artists want to play the second venue is because of the quality of music there it is a feather in your cap to have played there. Other reasons include simply 1000 people listening to your music… yet that is only possible because that venue played loads of other bands and build its reputation.

 

If you can see that playing venue 2 is attractive because you get exposure, and you understand that exposure is only possible because of the reputation of a load of artists who are not you playing there before you, then you get how this works.

 

If we agree that getting on a playlist with a big following is understandably desirable….

and we agree that it only has a big following because of it having lots of previous great music and regular promotion of those events and a history of doing this successfully

and we agree that whether those previous acts were signed or not, or were with a major label or not has little bearing on listeners deciding to go watch a band there…

 

Then surely it’s not a big stretch to understand if we build popular playlists, and then put good indies on those playlists, that those indies would then benefit? That if we build several playlists, if one playlist does really well other playlists are likely to benefit?

 

How does it benefit Songstuff? Well we will be working to get indies on and off Songstuff onto the playlist. Part of that is raising awareness in the indie music community of opportunities through Songstuff and awareness of what we offer. We will be trying to recruit and incentivise. If we build popular playlists and actively seek an increasing amount of indies to be included, the opportunity becomes more attractive, directly as a result of the audience reach and the possibility of getting on it.

 

We don’t plan on just dangling a playlist carrot. We will be building social media reach at the same time. We will build mailing list reach, both to artists and fans.

 

There’s more to it than that, but the point is we need an audience and that doesn’t magic out thin air. As you pointed out, Songstuff is lacking in active artists posting, so who do we put on our initial playlists? Sure we could wait until we had sourced enough quality indie artists, but why wait? Plus, let’s face it, larger artists have larger followings, which means potentially more exposure for acts who get on playlists. The overall balance will change, but I still expect perhaps 20% to still be mainstream artists… after all playlists are not dead items. They evolve.

 

As for empowerment, we haven’t launched or promoted any route onto our playlists, because that part isn’t ready yet. I can link you to the evolving info pages and the submission page on SSUK for consideration for playlisting, being featured and interviewed etc… but it isn’t all ready yet. There are 3 of us working away on this amongst other things. We could have waited, but building playlists takes a while. Building an audience a long while.
 

We generally have Songstuff members on them. Are they active? Most, no longer. Maybe they come back because of it. But we can hardly build playlists from currently active members. Even if all songs were radio ready it would still be short playlists with a limited pool of artists.

 

As for not being radio ready, that’s the point. While not all artists plan on radio ready songs, most would love evolving their tracks towards good quality radio ready. If we can attract more artists here who are producing radio ready tracks, that experience would help people and it might even inspire them, give them some belief.

 

Nothing we do can be all things to all artists, but if we just accept that Songstuff is declining and aren’t willing to even try to turn things around, I will close the site tomorrow. While it takes your time and some effort, it eats a lot of my money and a lot of my time and to be frank… I don’t pay that money out thinking I’m just digging a hole and tossing my money in (because simply watching a site decline and die, as an inevitable thing, is just that). I work as an expression of hope. Songstuff has been that since day 1. Others might think it foolhardy or a waste of time and money… but generally speaking I’d rather try and fail, than it to try at all. We all make our own choices. Not that one is better than the other, just one choice suits some people better than the other. Others don’t care which lol

 

Out of interest, the Flaming Lips started as an indie band for 7 years. Although mainly with Warner they still do releases as projects on an independent.

 

[john]

11 hours ago, Popthree said:

@johnsorry for all the questions today. I don't know what got into me. This is your place and I'm just a random tourist. Thanks for making this nice place for people to share sounds and make friends.

It’s not a problem. I need to communicate to members and visitors what we are doing and why. It’s all good stuff, but it needs explained and put into context. You were quite rightly exploring what we are doing and questioning it.