How Do You Write Your Lyrics?

[john]

Hey

I just wondered what you guys do to write a lyric. Do you start with an idea, then a title? Just start writing and see what happens? Write your lyrics with a guitar? Start with a melody?

Do you plan your lyrics? Do you use standard song forms? Do you critique and edit your own lyrics? Do you have any way of measuring how good your lyrics are (a standard you hold them up against?)?

Cheers

john

[Guest voclizr]

With me, usually the title comes from the lyric.

Lyric writing, for me is a very thought intensive process. Sometimes I'll just "let it flow" and see what comes out and correct as I go along. Sometimes I'll listen later and then attach it to a meaning and think "Yeah, THAT'S what I meant".

Don Fagin of Steely Dan once said that in alot of his lyrics, he"ll just put words together that sound good, even if they don't make sense, because most of the time your listeners don't really care what you're singing about!

John B.

[john]

Hey John

I used to work by writing first, then thinking about a title, but I found that by setting the title first (even if I changed it later) I ended up with a more cohesive lyric. I've also moved a lot of my approach to planning a lyric before a draft write. Sure sometimes I'll be playing the guitar and come up with a few lines, and they may well be in the finished lyric, but I still go back to planning the lyric.

By that I mean that a formal approach and employing what I've learnt through critique of previous lyrics allows me to sort out what I mean to say before I get too far down the organically growing lyric route.

For example:

I have an idea for a lyric. I look at the idea and decide if it is worth writing about.

Once I have a draft idea, I try and sort out a title. In general titles capture the essence of the lyric, and they are the first hook. In fact they are often used as the main hook of the song.

Now I know what I want the lyric to say, or not say, even writing the lyric organically from this point is a lot easier! I still do that quite often, until I reach the editing stage where the own-lyric-critique comes in.

it's true that often listeners don't really care that much, but for me that's an ok song, not a great one. It's a bit of a cop out. If a song doesn't mean much to the writer, why should it mean anything to me? I know the kind of songs you mean. They rely entirely on the catchieness of the melody or the musical arrangement. I would argue, why not do both? Most songs that listeners really identify with have a lyric that resonates real meaning with the listener.

Cheers

John

[Guest voclizr]

With me, I'd start to get tired of having to, with every new musical idea (I always do music first) think of a subject matter to write a lyric about. I got into a rut long ago of writing frequently about the pitfalls of a bad relationship and I swore up and down that I was gonna break that cycle. If you listen to my music, you'll see a lyrical pattern to that. I think a good lyric writer is one who can take a variety of subject matter (example: current events) and make an interesting and catchy lyric line from them.

John B..

[hariossa]

Most of the times lyrics is the last thing I worry about when making a song, I do write text and I have a copybook where I put down all my crazy ideas, sometimes I write without thinking, letting the words flow freely, most of those writings are crap but I feel good when doing it.

When I need lyrics for a song I can improvise them when recording or pick my copybook and improvise melodies using the lines I find in it. Sometimes I improvise both things and then I have a terrible time trying to find a way to continue the recorded idea...

I started composing instrumentals and did that for a lot of years, songs with voice and lyrics are still a new thing for me.

[musicthom]

i usually sit down with a guitar and work on a riff i like and when i get the basic melody i start puting the proper lyrics together

most of the time while im just messing with it there will be one line that will jump out and i build around that

[john]

Hey Hari

I sometimes work through lyric ideas or instrumental parts in a similar way. Unfettered creativity is useful, but I still find direction is needed.

John, I also agree. A good songwriter can make almost any topic the subject of a good lyric. But that is where consideration of ideas comes in. It's a question of the perspective on the topic, and how a subject can be incorporated effectively within the context of a lyric that uses other topics as the vehicle for a tougher subject.

Cheers

John

[Alistair]

My best lyrics come when I have a lyrical hook in mind, the worst when I just start writing.

Lately when I have an idea, I just try to write as much as possible before editing it down and organising it better.

[saran]

This is all so interesting! Whatever i'm attempting i can never think of a great title. I just get an idea for something and try to write as interesting as possible without losing the reader/listener by being too criptic. But then as the writer you don't always have to control the readers interpretation? Sometimes what they make of it can be far more interesting!

Sorry i can't offer any great insight, just wanted to say this topic is a good one!

[packman]

Almost every song I write, the title comes last. I usually start with an idea and write the song around it....although there have been times that I came up with a cool progression of chords or a funky guitar piece and the song stemmed from there. People ask me a lot of times where the songs or the ideas come from, and I don't think there's any one good or right way to come up with a song. I have found that if someone gives me a topic to write a song about, it's easier.

I went to visit a friend of mine in Cannelton, Indiana, and he drove me around showing me the sights. On the three hour drive home, I wrote down details about the trip and the town that stood out, and it was very easy to write a song when I got home. My sister recently got married and asked me to write a wedding song for her...given a topic, I sat down and cranked out two wedding songs in one day. So I think for me it's almost easier to write a tune if someone hands me a topic.

I also like to look at songs from point of view. If I'm writing about a homeless musician on the streets of Nashville, do I write the song as the musician? or as the guy who threw a quarter in his guitar case. Point of view can make a song very interesting indeed.

This is a great topic that we could debate for decades......I love to hear everybody's songwriting methods.

Talk to you guys later,

[Funkeegirl]

I'm not one of these people who can come up with lyrics just like that......I need to really feel what I'm writing about. I can come up with music anytime but when I write lyrics I like to be as honest and descriptive as I can, that's why when I get an idea/emotion/some-one tics me off I like to try and write it all down as quickly as possible as in a few hours (or even minutes sometimes) the feeling will be gone!

I don't like to think too deeply about things like structure and standard arrangments....I like to let my mind feel that it can go in any direction that the song need to go in. I do generally tend to write in Verse/Chorus/Verse/Chorus/M8/Chorus/Chorus but that's purely by accident!

I love hearing unusual but not umcomfortable structures, I think Ani Difranco is one of the greatest songwriters for doing this - her songs are simple enough that you can find the groove, but there's great little phrases that she dots around her songs just to keep your interest I love it!

Anyways thanks for reading, I've really enjoyed seeing what you all had to say x

[Hope4Peace]

Hey

I just wondered what you guys do to write a lyric. Do you start with an idea, then a title? Just start writing and see what happens? Write your lyrics with a guitar? Start with a melody?

Do you plan your lyrics? Do you use standard song forms? Do you critique and edit your own lyrics? Do you have any way of measuring how good your lyrics are (a standard you hold them up against?)?

Cheers

john

Im all over the place, sometimes a line will just come to me and ill try to build something around it. sometimes just I have an idea I build around. At other times I actually do like to write from a title alone. Cant say Ive ever written lyrics from a melody yet, but maybe sometime in the future I could try it. I dont normally plan them, just keep writing and see what happens. most of the time use the standard v1 chorus v2 chorus bridge chorus forum but at times have altered the form a bit. Normally after ive written something I dont do alot of any editing at all. As for measuring how good they are well sometimes I read over something of mine and Ill like it and think "ok thats not too bad" then maybe after a few days or even weeks I can go back and I might by then read it and think, no this is crap. So if I still like it after a few months then thats my way of judging myself if I think its any good.

[Donna]

Good thread.

About everything said I can relate to as a lyricist.

I tend to think in lyrical form (I think! ). Reckon that sometimes include melody too.

Lyrics for me are tied to rythym so I tend to think lyrics in structured forms. And also craft them that way. I actually like threes (not 3/4 time) but ch. or verse in threes.

John Moxey's method of direction and all: he's winning me over to this! It's almost like transferring knowledge of say clarinet, to learning sax - so it's not like starting from scratch. It's a more conscious way of being a craftsman. But I can still use stuff that has just come to me in spontaneous thought, as it were. OR reject that same stuff, which I might reject anyway! Editing is also what we're about, I reckon, whether we know it or not.

[Bitstream]

For popular songs:

---------------------

I simply concentrated my efforts on a catchy chorus; so the words and music were constantly changing until the hook was sharp enough. The title influenced the chorus words greatly. pop choruses are normally upbeat, so to keep the mood of the listener upbeat, I kept the topic positive for a feel good factor. Then hopefully the listener would be waiting for the chorus bit. The verses, I made downbeat. And the mood was reflected as negative in the words. The final verse is all important: it has to be upbeat to bring the listener totally out of the dulldrums. The majority of pop listeners want to feel good I suppose.

As an example:

------------------

Verse 1: "He's a cheating bastard"

Chorus: "But I feel really good, la, la, la"

Verse 2: "He picks his arse in bed and it niffs"

Chorus: "But I feel really good now he's gone, la, la, la"

Verse 3: "Here's how much better off I am, and why I feel good"

Chorus: "But I feel really good, la, la, la" ... and fade out

[TheDustCollector]

I tend to improvise my lyrics as I play it. I improvise the melody as well, and make modifications if necessary. Sometimes I'll just be zoning out and kind of tired on a Saturday morning and suddenly go on Word and type four lines of lyrics, and then use that as the base for my entire song. I'm one of those songwriters that once I'm going at it, it's easy, but actually thinking of where to get started is harder.

[roxhythe]

Well, I just finished a song. Let me see if I can describe what happened.

First, there was music. There is always music, because I have what amounts to a gigantic 8-track player running in my head all the time. I refer to it as The Soundtrack From God. It's been playing a lot of blues and old-time rock 'n' roll lately, because I got asked last week to contribute lead guitar tracks to two online collaborations that were being recorded, one a Chicago blues, the other progressive rock (and something way outside my usual "box"). One of the guys involved in the blues collab had talked about wanting me to write lyrics for their next one, and I'm obviously interested--words are my strength, not my guitar playing.

And then two bullfrogs moved into the back yard. Actually, one moved into the neighbors' yard, so they're separated by a tall fence. And they call to each other all night. It's almost sweet. ("Touching" is probably a better word for it. Bullfrogs are *not* sweet.) It's the classic Pyramus and Thisbe legend popularized by Shakespeare--the lovers forced to communicate through a chink in the wall that separates them. Only with bullfrogs. And there's the lyric.

A blues, of course, with a good rock 'n' roll beat, because that was the music that was playing. And what these amphibian kids were croaking at each other just *had* to be the blues. It was originally going to be just a short and silly thing, that the abovementioned bluesmen could play off of and do lots of lead breaks to, but the song developed a life of its own (they sometimes do that), and grew from two short verses into something that had three verses (each with an extra line, so it isn't *quite* a 12-bar blues), plus a bridge. And when I recorded it, the whole thing, with just a one-verse lead break, comes in at almost 4 minutes.

I both worry and don't worry about structure as I'm assembling the pieces of the song in my head. As a confirmed anarchist, I pay attention to rules when it suits me; I'm concerned primarily that when I'm done, what I've produced is a complete thought (so the listener can say, "Yup--I guess that's about all you can say about *that*"), and that it come in between 3-1/2 and 5 minutes. My thinking is geared to the song being performed--by me, either solo or with a band--so I want to ensure it's both possible and easy to do that. I'll build in deliberate mnemonic tricks ('cause when I perform, I will not have any music on stage)--like having a word in a specific place sound a certain way so it will rhyme with a word Over There and remind me of what I'm supposed to sing Over There--and I'll build in spots where I can catch my breath without being obvious about it, and places where I can emphasize words, phrases, or even inflections I want people to notice. In this case, because I wanted to use the frogs as my backup singers (because they were so cute, and besides, they sound better'n me), I needed to keep the speed of the song at about what a bullfrog croaks at--which is 120 BPM, by the way.

Before I recorded anything, though, I did other things. It is my normal practice not to write anything down until it's done; however, they let me run a kind of stream-of-consciousness thread over on the MusesK.com board where I kinda thought everything through out loud (I'd done that with another song, previously) and invited people to chime in with suggestions (which they pretty much didn't). When the lyrics were in a form I was satisfied with (and I am hard to satisfy), they were vetted to the folks on MusesK and Just Plain Folks--and I did make one change based on the suggestions I got. *Then* I recorded it.

I hadn't played it on the guitar before then--just listened to the melody in my head. I was pretty sure when I played it on the guitar, it was going to come out country music, because they always do, and I was right. So it's a country blues instead of rock 'n' roll. A friend of mine in Texas has it right now, and she may add a *real* lead guitar, bass, and drums to it, and it may yet sound more rock 'n' roll--I don't know. I'll play it with our Friday Night Group tomorrow, which'll be its first test-out on a live audience (and also its first playing with a Real Band). If the band and audience like it, to the point where they're requesting it again, then (and only then) it's a "keeper," and will become part of the Setlist and maybe go on the next CD.

Oh, and it doesn't have a title per se. I did give it a "working title," because I had to call it something, but I usually let the *audience* be the determinent of the title. When I play it, I won't tell 'em what it's called--I'll wait and see what *they* call it when (if) they request the song again. *That* will be the title. Those folks are much better at naming things than I am, so I let 'em.

And that--kinda lengthy--is The Story. Hope 'twas helpful.

Joe

[phalkoner]

a lot of mine just flow out , i get an idea or line in my head and go with it, ive writn about 200, but never had anything published or had any1 interested, but after my recent postings on here i have reakised im not very good at it.

[john]

a lot of mine just flow out , i get an idea or line in my head and go with it, ive writn about 200, but never had anything published or had any1 interested, but after my recent postings on here i have reakised im not very good at it.

Hey

After the initial flow out of an idea, do you go back and edit it/revise it? I think a flow is a great thing, and you shouldn't interrupt your creative flow, but after it is over there is absolutely nothing to stop you revising your work.

Just a thought.

Cheers

John

[phalkoner]

yes i do go go back and sometimes redo what ive written,but i now see what other people see that i write a load of rubbish and should not do it any more.

[john]

Hey

I don't think anyone said your work was a load of rubbish. Or in fact thinks that.

Sure they made some suggestions, but that's why folks post lyrics... to get comments from a perspective other than their own.

Why do you think people think your lyrics are rubbish?

Cheers

John