Nick

Here's a couple though both are quite old now: Box Of Goats - RISE ABOVE Generic Sensation - FLIES

A tourist walks into a bar in Ireland and asks for a Guinness. "That would be a SLOW Guinness you'd be wanting then, sor?" says the barman "What's a slow Guinness?" asks the man " Ah, well, that would be the way a Guinness should be poured. With love and beauty and care to bring out the full flavour of the beer and the delicate balance between the dark of the body and correct consistency of the white, creamy head. We lavish time and care to deliver this in perfect condition and it can't be rushed - even the tilt of the glass in the initial pour at an angle of 46 degrees is crucial to the process. If you have the time it's worth the wait" "I'll have a SLOW Guinness then" says the man "And would you be wanting a quick Guinness while you're waiting?" asked the barman

Lessons and practice help you play this sort of stuff that I happened to record my son playing when we were practicing tonight - PRACTICE - and a phrase something like that without the mistakes will turn up in a solo or piece of playing one day. It's where technique helps. It's about a weeks worth of notes for me in about 7 seconds

Sing - either internally or externally. And then play the notes on the guitar. And if you can't play it exactly you'll also play within your limitations AND learn a lot on the way The advantage of that is that your solos will then tend to be based on the tune your playing rather than a series of shapes and techniques that make all the solos sound the same. The tune is a good starting place for a solo. And in the same way that you might phrase a song with a phrase and an answering phrase then decent functional solos often work with a similar structure. In it's simplest form playing the tune on an instrument works though is a little limited but has more sense than playing a blistering technical extravaganza which has nothing to do with the particular song. There is an article HERE by a guitar player (who happened to write a favourite tune of mine) which makes a lot of sense to me. The article mostly relates to bluegrass and similar (and some stuff on jazz) but you may find it useful. He lives on the east coast somewhere. Fine mandolin player too and if you get a chance to listen to his music it's excellent. Along with his acoustic things he's also a big Alan Holdsworth fan so he is really quite diverse. You didn't say what sort of music but in another thread you mentioned Bonnie Raitt who I think is a fine soloist. If you listen to a lot of the solos on her albums many of them are based closely on the tunes and work beautifully. I saw an interview with Clapton years ago on the TV and the interviewer asked him what he did when he came up to solo and he pretty much said that he heard the tune of what he would play and would start there. A friend of mine always pretty much plays the same way when they try to solo as they believe it's about "soloing". It unfortunately always comes out pretty much sounding the same as it has little to do with the underlying tune and more to do with a series of note clusters and tricks strung together without thought for what lies underneath or often even the genre he is playing in. It was much like when I was listening to someone recently murder the Ralph McTell song 'Clare to Here' - it would be hard to explain how you could treat that song the way this guy did. Chacun a son gout as they say in Sweden.

If you become really famous it's best to be self taught as it has more kudos somehow. (Stephane Grapelli is an example that comes to mind of a self taught master in his field with influence, distinctive sound, innovation, etc etc) Otherwise having lessons is much the best. I've never had lessons myself so am full of awful habits and I'm sure it limits my playing. Having played for quite a long time it's now as hard to unlearn things (perhaps harder) as it is learn new things. My son is no mean slouch on the guitar and practices A LOT. But he has a solid technical base to work from from his guitar teacher and that lays solid ground for his playing. As his playing improves he has the basic techniques sitting there and go move forward speed-wise and sound wise. His previous teacher taught less technique and more feel but my son wanted to have some formal qualifications so that he can move onto college in a couple of years and his previous teacher didn't do grades. He's doing his grade 8 on guitar this month. He also learned loads when he went down to a course with John Wheatcroft at Bath University in the summer. When I play anything lead-like on a guitar my lack of fluidity and technique shows through and I doubt I will ever change that dramatically. Bass wise I can move round a bass reasonably well but again have limited technique. Acoustic fingerpicking wise I have lots of limits I come up against and could really do with unravelling my technique and starting again. I learn a lot currently from on eof the people that I play with by watching rather than formal learning. Strumming a guitar is also an enormous skill and the skill he has with a pick is something I learn a lot from. Much of that is just trying to keep an even strum in a jig rhythm and keep it up for the length of a tune set with variations. It looks the easiest thing in the world but isn't... (I have a friend who tries, and practices, and practices but can't get it). You could practice for ever...

Spitfish

If you think I'm childish you are welcome to your view. I'll post once more because I'm not leaving this forum because of a difference it's a much more fundamental thing. I will be in touch directly with Lazz anyway but it's still the case that I find this forum increasingly frustrating and my lack of ability to engage in discussion here is the reason for me going not that I have any particular issue with Lazz. I do find his attitude towards people often incredibly patronising as I have said to him earlier on this thread and the inability to have a discussion with someone who I actually think is one of the more interesting posters on the site unless it is on his terms and at his pace made me question what on earth I was doing here. Not being a prolific songwriter (though curiously I am writing a lot at the moment) my prime interests have always been tangential to the main thrust of this site. And not being a songwriter I tend not to criticise others writing. Originally I came because Alistair pointed me here. I find few of the things that I start up have much interest and that few of the threads develop much discussion; the other main forum I use has a much broader base of contributing members and so the discussion is that much broader. I appreciate your comments but genuinely feel that there is very little that I have to contribute to the site and if it's going to end up with me being disruptive rather than a positive force then it's time to go. Lazz has a lot more relevant things to contribute as a writer and musician and I have no desire to put him off posting though also no regrets at pointing out that personally I feel he occasionally stifles dialogue and discussion by his attitude. I believe sometimes he sets out to help but should be writing articles rather than writing an article wrapped up as a discussion tutting and chiding those who post things that are at a tangent to what he wants to say. But that's his choice and I sure as hell ain't going to lose a second's sleep over it. His positives here far outweigh his negatives. For my part I can never resist having a go at pricking certain sorts of bubbles (it's childish I know). And this is not aimed at anyone here - but people with deeply entrenched views; people who won't listen; people who take themselves too seriously; people whose own view of their worth far outweighs that of others; are windmills that I cannot help but tilt at. Be good and happy.

I've removed myself from the forum and won't be participating further.

I found it very interesting and useful and understood most of it. Credit where credit is due. I was going to keep well away from posting on threads that you post on but I will one last time to make a suggestion - and this is an observation not an attack. Perhaps you'd be better writing an article, Lazz, rather than posting in a forum as, with your last post, you have again done your thing of stifling discussion. A forum - by definition - is a medium for open discussion and/or the voicing of ideas. To try and constantly (and may I say in a rather patronising fashion) ignore other contributions if they don't suit you or you perceive they distract from your oracle-like didactic position suggests that a forum is not best suited to your interesting and helpful observations and outpourings.

Extend the range at the bottom of the guitar and for the low sound I think. Much favoured in metal circles. They make 8 string guitars too. Some guy who is an uber shredder (got to love that phrase) plays something with a low B and a high A string - too weird for me I have tried it a bit and find it odd because I mostly play chords rather than single string work and it's odd to play chords on. Neck is that much wider than a 6 string so again feels funny. Zand likes it though and it's his cash so up to him

There is a long discussion about this with a range of helpful, and less helpful, posts (and the usual attempts by people in forums to complicate and confuse) on this site in the thread called "What's This Chord". There is a lot of reading there but if you sift out the crap thee's some good stuff

I've become a bit obsessed with joining bands at the moment - it's probably some sort of approaching middle age thing. After my son sat on my mandolin and broke the bridge I went to get it fixed at my local music shop and came out twenty minutes later having joined a bluegrass band (so that makes 1- individual stuff I do 2-Box of Goats 3-potentially reformed Generic Sensation may need a bass player for gigs 4-Eric Pope and the Cardinals 5-duo with Irish friend playing acoustic music 6-bluegrass band - a band for each day of the week with a day off for good behaviour and gardening). The entertaining bit is that I'm going to be playing double bass (and perhaps mandolin - which is one extreme to another). I have played one probably three times in my life but after half an hours practice on Friday I am hooked. Wonderful sound and feel to it. Totally weird size and feel. Tiring to play and support it. After a bit of playing the spacing etc is starting to make sense and it isn't really that different to an electric bass fundamentally - well perhaps it is but I'm sure I'll adapt. Anyone else play one? As and aside I'm a bit stunned as to what has happened musically recently. Having never played in public (apart from 2 gigs 38 years ago) I have started playing lots of live music with the prospect of playing much more. I have had a really good six months where I have met some excellent (professional) musicians who seem happy to let me play with them and I find myself playing with a calibre of player that I would never have dreamt possible. Tthe banjo player and guitar player in the bluegrass thing are rather impressive and play in Nashville sometimes along with teaching guitar, playing concerts and making odd CDs - the guitarist I am in awe of. The other band has a wonderful singer / fiddle player /guitarist who was playing and making his living as a musician in the States who I can't believe wants to play with me. Curious thing life.

My son has decided to branch out and buy another guitar so he bought an Ibanez RG1257RB (one of these - A bloke on youtube who loves his!) today which arrives on Tuesday Anyone have any experience of playing one?

I can confirm the gig for the 24th that we've been offered then

I have the following: MANDY (the mandolin) BASIL (the bass - not because it's faulty) OTIS (the Spanish guitar - after Otis Spann) BERNARD (the old acoustic because it's a Levin) PHIL TAYLOR (the Yamaha FG180 - "oneundredneighty") LYNNE (main acoustic because it sings beautifully, has great curves and a lovely bottom end) No of course I don't have names for them. BB King called all his guitars Lucille which is even more stupid...

Can't see anything wrong or lazy about that. If you JUST play the root notes of chords though it may get a bit boring - apart from certain sorts of tunes where that works. I was playing at the weekend and played "I still haven't found what I'm looking for" by U2 for the first time and that feels to me as if it thrives on having one note bass lines played with drive and following the guitarists rhythm. Some tunes - let's say Heartbreaker by Led Zeppelin or something similar is written as a guitar / bass riff and that's it. Most tunes aren't perhaps that straightforward and the bass player has flexibility to play what he wants - WITHIN THE CONSTRAINTS OF FITTING IN WITH THE OTHER BAND MEMBERS. I play quite a lot of Irish music with one band and that tends to be three chord stuff with the traditional bass part being root-fifth root-fifth bass run joining chord to chord then root-fifth etc etc (eg chord sequence two bars of C, two bars of F, two bars of C - play on the bass C G C G | C G C D E| F C F C | F C F E D C etc etc) but there is still a lot of flexibility if I care to. The style of music though is rooted in that steady 1-2 1-2 1-2 1-2 beat bang on the beat and syncopated flowery lines don't fit the style of music. If you had a prgression that goes C /// Dm /// F /// G /// F/// G/// C//C7 F /// G /// F/// Fm/// C /// Dm / G C you could just play a bass note for each and play four Cs, 4 Ds etc etc Might sound a bit limited though. A second option is that you could play any of the notes of the chord you are playing so perhaps C C E E | D D A A | F F A A | G G B D etc A third option might be that you play root notes of the chords but create runs between the chord changes eg C C D E | D D F E | F A C A | G F D E | etc etc A fourth option might be that you double up the beats in the bar and play up to eight notes rather than four... For the most part I have always used my ears and listened to the song and usually find something suggests itself in my head - if this has been any use I will give you a few more examples of how I personally approach a tune. I usually find bass lines write themselves from either something in the tune. I had great fun the other year putting a bass part to Donna's song that I liked and have done various things with Alistair over time - some of the tunes he has written have had a fairly obvious bass line or style of bass line and some haven't but hopefully I have added something to his music rather than getting to much in the way - and on some of them the bass part has become a part of the whole piece. Alistair's songs - as all good songs should - work fine without any of the extra bits but I have had a lot of fun adding those bits in so that we have different versions of what he has written. He wrote a tune called 10 Things I Want to Do before I Die which you'll find somewhere on Songstuff - and I think there is the bass part that I created for that which I'm pleased with. That I worked out in my head and then worked it out on the bass and leanred to play it. There is a tune called Inescapable Truth that he wrote also and that has a different sort of bass playing on it entirely. There were 6 or 8 repeats of the same chord sequence in the original acoustic version and I added quite a lot of bass fills to it to break it up and give it more variety - on that it was more like playing the bass as a lead instrument. Another one he wrote is Rise Above and that has a guitar part that I originally shadowed on the bass. Once my son put a drum part on I changed what I played to lock in with the drums - more notes and harder to play but more effective. I can point you to some links if you are interested. I am a competent bassist and play it live fairly regularly now I am back in to it and am learning all the time.

You carry on Lazz I'll leave off posting on threads where you're in teaching mode. Bit like on the Chords thread I've removed the posts so they don't get in your way. Guitarists and bassists only play in E A or C? Very amusing. As I used to play with a keyboard player I learned to play in Eb, Bb etc very early on (without a capo). In the two gigs I play today we play tunes in C, C#, D, Eb, E, F, G, Abm, A, Bb and Bm - must find one to play in F#* just for the hell of it. No mention of Bb being boring in my post if you'd read it. Never been fond of Ornette Coleman; Herbie Hancock is a huge favourite of mine - though Watermelon Man not; Kind of Blue is wonderful; Charlie Parker I like too I'll keep well away in future. *Actually thinking about it Alistair's Falling Off the Edge of the World is in F# so it's close to a full set. On a bass playing in any key is very little problem.

When I first started playing bass (about 1968ish scarey thought!) I used to just sit and jam with a lead guitarist with no drummer and it definitely makes you play in a certain sort of way. I was influenced at the time by a mixture of Cream, Black Sabbath and Blues. Because of the sparseness of the two instruments and no percussion I tended to play quite a lot of notes, a fair number of chords and to often try and play a bit off the rhythm rather than solid and on the beat. I then stopped playing bass for about 30 something years. Going back to it I still played in the same sort of style but changed when I started playing with drummers reasonably regularly as my previous style did not necessarily work very well and I learned to play with a drummer which is much more fun.

It is from the Joni Mitchell tour with Pat Metheney, Michael Brecker etc His playing on her albums arond that time is astounding - Jericho off the Don Juan album is amazing I think. Big influence on Joni as well with his approach and freedom. I love playing bass. You can do so much from where it is. Change the harmonic feel of a tune by what you play - change the pace and feel of a tune - play like a soloist or like an ensemble player - emphasize the beat - drive the tune - play densely or sparsely - play chords - create riffs and bass lines that 'become the song' - it is much more versatile than non-players think. People say to me sometimes why do I like "just" playing bass when I could be playing the guitar which I play reasonably and they don't see it's because I like doing it so much.

This is with fingers Satellites and is wonderfully over the top especially from about 1:50 onwards but if you can't try out things in practice when can you? Lots of bits that don't work but some that I'll use again. Only the second or third time practising/playing it so it's a work in progress. It's quite bassy as I think the recorder was perched on the bass amp. Love playing bass with a good rhythm guitarist who drives the music - great fun. An interesting way to play bass I came across whilst watching K T Tunstall: her bass player plays mostly plays with a pick but mostly plays with UP strokes rather than down strokes which is something I had never really come across before (for example in Suddenly I See which helps gives it it's particular sound). It gives an interesting sound and is different to fingers or a pick played predominantly down. Stanley Clarke used to be a hero of mine a long time and played with fingers; Jaco Pastorius was just the best and got a lot of his unique sound because of the way he played with his fingers. It DOES make a huge difference.

I'll post a linh to a couple of acoustic things with me playing bass later - one with fingers one with a pick/plectrum/tortoise and see what you think - one's waterboys Fishermans Blues and one's Satellites (Counting Crows which I just ADORE playing bass on and overdo DRAMATICALLY ) Did you mean nails like those pointed things you hammer into walls? I must try that

Nails! You must either have amazingly strong nails, play at an incredibly high volume or stroke the strings really gently. Half an hour of me playing bass completely wrecks my nails as the strings just wear them away. Continual battle between growing them to play acoustic and wearing then away playing bass. I play mostly with the pads of my first three fingers (plus a bit of thumb especially when playing chords and occasionally the little finger)

Depends on what you are playing I play with fingers on some things and use a pick on others. Different sound to both and different things you can do. I probably play more with fingers than plectrum on balance. Got a wonderful blood blister on my middle finger from overdoing it playing for three and a bit hours on Sunday which has just stopped being really sore and is now just tolerably sore. Playing till your fingers bleed is probably not recommended but I didn't notice until after one of the tunes.

Then you haven't heard Toots Thielmans play

That's a lovely thing to say Steve. I'll tell him of your post - and it's very true. He applies himself and does work hard at it and takes it very seriously. He took up the piano fairly recently and practices away at that and his teacher is confident that he will be at Grade 6 standard next year. He has a compositional side though that is a fascinating talent and is something special. I have friends now who are decent professional and semi professional players who accept him happily as an equal and that's really nice. He has a great ear but his understanding of theory only adds rather than subtracts and he is starting to pull the various strands together where his ideas and technique are coming together so that he can jam and play with structure and a free flow of ideas. We were chatting tonight about chords and he has at least as good a knowledge as I do of chord progressions, chord substitutions, tritones substitutions, where to use secondary dominants and all that stuff and how to apply them in his playing - but it doesn't get in the way of just getting and down and rocking. This is a bit more of his playing - he still has a long way to go but I don't know lots of people who can wander onto a stage and jam like this with no clue as to where it was going and play a decent 7-8 minute guitar solo on a borrowed acoustic that they have never played on before. I'm probably biased but it ain't bad - Jam and Fragile (Sting) - sorry the quality is rather distorted