Nick

I practised with an Irish lady as a second guitarist a couple of years ago with the intention of playing some gigs and so the first thing that I did was start to learn her repertoire. One of the things that I noticed was how similar in chord structure a lot of her favourites were - in her particular case a lot of the songs followed a chord structure of I - V - VIm - IV and an even more significant number started with a I - V change rather than a I - IV change or any other. My wife is very partial to songs that start with a I - IIIm - IV chord structure (but not 'Where Do You Go To My Lovely' thankfully). Often she'll hear a song that she likes and wants to do and it's surprising the number of times that it has that structure. Perhaps that's one of the things that makes songs work quickly for people, who knows. Sometimes one just hears something that immediately strikes the ear and I have no idea why. In most cases I then shamelessly nick of for my/or bands repertoire. Some examples - very different each. 'Karma Chameleon' - 'Caledonia' Dougie Maclean - 'Always With Me' Joe Satriani - 'Strong Winds for Autumn' Bob McNeill - 'Waste The Paint' Jim Hunter Most of them you won't even have heard of but each hit me the same way

The ones that would most come to mind are first off - Bm D Em F# (either major or minor) - with the F# or F#m one or the other will probably feel 'right' You might also find that A and G also fit here and there Bm C#m D Em F#m (or F#) G A Bm If you know the old Fleetwood Mac song 'Black Magic Woman' - that is based on a pentatonic and goes (in Bm) - Bm F#m Bm Em (sometimes then moved to Emajor) and then either i) Bm F#m Bm or ii) Bm A G F#m Bm - both fit the melody quite well. That sort of change would give it a blues minory feeling. A lot of folk and acoustic songs will have the verse harmonised with the minor chords and then move to the connected major key in the chorus or bridge; utilising D G A and Bm and then returning to the minor. Not sure if that's much help at all. In fact having reread your first post try playing Bm G E against your melody and then try Bm G Em against it and you'll get quite a different effect and one will probably feel 'right' for your melody. Picking up my guitar and playing the two take my ear and fingers in different directions! One of the things is that given a melody there are potentially a huge number of different ways to harmonise them. If you ever come across a book called Acoustic Guitar by Eric Roche there is a wonderful section where he takes Twinkle Twinkle Little Star and then harmonises it about 8 different ways starting from the 'right' one that we know and ending very very differently though the melody is still recognisable. It's difficult without a tune though! I play with some fiddle players once a week and they are forever turning up with the notes of tunes which they then play to their hearts content. The fun part from my end is finding a working harmony as we go. Sometimes the melody so powerfully moves you to the next chord that it is almost unavoidable to play it - sometimes there are many options each slightly changing the effect. Sometimes of course I cock it up totally but less so than I used to! Keeps me amused anyway.

1. Do you sing, play an instrument or instruments? YES What instruments? GUITAR, BASS, MANDOLIN, PIANO a bit and SING When did you start playing? mid 60's Did you teach yourself? Yes mostly but I have learned huge amounts playing with an watching others 2. Are you in a band or bands? YES What is the name of the band? GREEDY ZEBRAS, occasional BOX of GOATS, duo with wife, acoustic gigs with friends, occasional solo things, plus informal sessions and occasional one off gigs and jams What do you play? Mix from Folk to acoustic to rock What other instruments are in the band? Sax, guitars, bass, drums Do you have a band website? YES 3. Do you write songs? OCCASIONALLY but rarely heard or played Do you write lyrics, music or both? BOTH Do you have a writing partner? NO 4. Do you record your music? YES sometimes Do you use a home studio? If so what gear do you use? COMPUTER and small portable recorder plus Reaper software Do you use a recording studio? RARELY Do you have music available on the web? if so where? ESNIPS, Myspace, YouTube and others 5. What other roles do you perform in the music business? IRRITANT Management? Label owner? Publishing? Promotion? Other? 6. Are you a tech head? NOT REALLY. Technology is a tool and a means to an end 7. What country do you live in? ENGLAND 8. What are your ambitions? MANY and DIVERSE 9. Do you draw/paint/write stories/computer art/dance or other creative pursuit? Draw occasionally, write stories - will write a novel (being encouraged to currently) - used to do some computer art some years ago when I had on of the web sites I've had over time What are your pastimes? MUSIC, READING, MORE MUSIC, DRINKING BEER (less so these days) 10. What would you like to get out of Songstuff? MORE DISCUSSION

My (cheap) tuner has a chromatic tuner so will tune to whatever you want. Easier is to tune the guitar relatively though a drop B on a guitar without VERY heavy strings is going to be like playing an elastic band and will be really difficult to play in tune as you will constantly bend the strings out of tune. But if you have to then tune your 2nd string to B as normal and top E as normal. Next tune your 4th (D) string down so that it is an octave under (hopefully you can do this by ear if not the 12th fret on the 4th string needs to be the same as the open 2nd. Next detune the 6th string so that it is an octave under - or do the 12th fret = open 4th string. Now you have two strings right. Tune the 3rd string down from G to E which is an octave under your 1st string (or 12th fret 3rd = open 1st). Now detune 5th string so that it is the same as the 7th fret on the 6th string. Now 2nd string down so that it is the same as the 4th fret of the 3rd string. Lastly top string so that it is the same as the 5th fret of the 2nd string. By now most of it will have gone horribly out of tune and you'll probably be wondering why you did it... But that would work. Why do you want to do it by the way? My son plays a 7 string and tunes down to a low B but has a much heavier string and tends to tune to B E A D G B E On my 6 string I tune to CGCGCE or CGCGCD quite a lot as I like Dougie Macleans songs but even with medium weight strings (13 - 56) the C is still quite low and I usually use a capo.

Here are examples of what we use at various sizes - the A3 one can look good Any comments welcome

Would it not be because most of these are what would be viewed in other parts of the arts as universal themes - love, peace, friendship, man's inhumanity to man, conflict, pleasure etc Songs no different to poetry and literature (or dance) in their ability to communicate these underlying themes. Popular soaps and the mass of TV and cinema entertainment is similar

Latest band I play with has a Myspace page now at Greedy Zebras on MySpace - I'll be happy to add anyone and do whatever one does on MySpace once I understand it

Reminded of this when a Scottish lady sang a sad song called 'The Great Silkie' about a woman who has a son by a silkie (man on land seal in water) ***** A girl wakes up in bed after a boozy party and rolls over to find she is in bed with an elephant. "What are you doing here?" she asks in surprise. "We met at the party, got on rather well and you invited me back home" says the Elephant. "Ohmigod, we didn't make love did we?" "We sure did" smiled the Elephant "I must have been tight" says the girl "Only at first" says the Elephant

A long time ago I had a problem recording direct from a PA record output to my Zoom H2. I tend to record gigs that we play at but the output from the amp and the input to the Zoom don't match and you get a horribly distorted result. There was a post a long time ago about this which I understood but couldn't work out how to do from Roflcopter - I have been recording the new band I'm in using the mics which is OK but not great but this week - for the princely sum of £4.50 + VAT - I bought one of these - a volume control cable - and the results are preety good. The saxophone clips and limits a bit but I know why but the quality sounds ok. It might be useful for someone. I'll post a bit of a clip later to give an idea of how it sounds.

John There was nothing in the least derogatory in my comment. I deleted it because, if it made no sense, then it added not a thing to the thread. Given the level of posting on the thread I don't think it materially affected anything

I was at a music thing some while back and one of the performers sang her new song and I thought carefully about whether to mention that it sounded VERY much like a Joni Mitchell song (For the Roses if I remember). I decided on balance to do so but felt it seemed a really critical thing to say - even though other people might have noticed the similarity. I have since met the person again and I believe she re-worked the song in the light of that and was not too upset I'd mentioned it. As an aside, I always reckoned the Don Mclean album with American Pie on has basically only one tune on it and chodrd progression - can you be done for plagiarising yourself?

I was in London at the weekend at Guitar - X a college in London for guitar players. It's one of the places that my son is looking at as he intends to become a professional musician. Note - not to win Pop Idol or necessarily become a star (though he wouldn't mind) and not just to play in a band but to become a professional musician. It's why he practices technical stuff 4+ hours a day and has his next years practice and playing regime already planned out so that when he gets to college he'll be way past the Grade 8 standard that he is at the moment. His piano teacher which he does as a bit of a sideline is encouraging him to do Grade 8 piano next year but he is not sure whether it will get in the way of his guitar playing. Does it get in the way of his playing or creativity? Nope. He enjoys playing and writing and developing his craft. John Wheatcroft (who is a fine jazz guitarist) gave an introductory talk and talked exactly about this. Can studying music spoil your playing? Can it get in the way of creativity? Definitely no. He's currently giving lessons to Radiohead's guitarist. Why? Because as he plays and has met other players the limits of his knowledge show and so he has gone back to learn and develop further. John Renbourn who was a hero of mine when I was young did the same and went back to studying guitar later in life. Steve Vai is a favourite and he is technically accomplished, well versed in theory and writes very interestingly on aspects of playing, theory and performance. His start was transcribing Zappa as I'm sure you know and transcription is an interesting and demanding technical exercise. But however taught you are you have to also feel it. The Groove book that Lazz once referred to I recently passed on to a particularly 'stiff' properly trained paper based player. I'm not sure he understood it though.

My wife came across a program about backing singers which might interest some of you - R.E.S.P.E.C.T - the Art of the Backing Singer which was broadcast yesterday on Radio 4. To quote the blurb - Nick Barraclough delves into the world of backing vocalists, from the fluffy 50s to the stunning sophistication of today's jazzers, the innovations brought by The Beatles and The Beach Boys and the multi-tracked world of Joni Mitchell and The Carpenters. A Smooth Operations production for BBC Radio 4. Broadcast on:BBC Radio 4, 10:30am Saturday 23rd May 2009 Duration: 30 minutes Available until: 11:02am Saturday 30th May 2009 Categories:Factual, Arts, Culture & the Media, Music I have always appreciated the parts that make up the whole and it was nice to have the spotlight turned on the singers. We have a friend in Hull who always yearned to be a backing singer (she is no mean lead singer either) - long black gloves and sumptuous harmonies.

Very erudite Steve but perhaps a bit confusing on the 7th front. The chord referred to as C2 is a Cmaj7 rather than a C7. And when you say "there is no V in the progression so clearly the chords are not meant to be viewed in a straightforward major context" what is the B chord other than a fifth? Boff Here's a wee Youtube clip to spot some of the shapes you are playing - Or you could play Luka by Suzane Vega which has similar stuff Or Fields of Gold by Sting you can play with a lot of those chords Or have a look at John McGann's Canyon Moonrise. It's a favourite tune I play with a friend and the chord voicings and progression I think is lovely. One of it's nicer aspects is the ambiguity between major and minor. Doesn't much matter what they are called does it?

I listened to a Van Morrison concert on the Tv the other night. He's a great three chord man (occasionally 4) - mostly feeling and grunting. If you want a list of good two chord songs I have some. And a one chord song or two. The knack is the song NOT the chord progression. The REALLY clever bit is when you realise someone has written a song with a chord progression you know and have played a million times before (eg C Am F G) and it's different. Now that's clever. How many chords has Karma Chameleon got? First time I heard that I thought "that is so catchy".. Clever stuff.

A man goes for a job as a blacksmith. "Have you shoed many horses?" asks the blacksmith "No" says the man "but I once told a donkey to piss off"

If you like it it's fine. Stevie Ray Vaughan used to detune by a semitone and Hendrix did too sometimes. The only thing is that on an acoustic it loses some of the sound. They are, I believe, built to play at concert pitch and the sound is optimised to play there. You may lose a little of the sound of the guitar by taking it down a tone. I know a guy who always detunes by about 3 semitones (and then capos upwards). I presume it is because the string tensions are that much less. He is such a tragically bad player that I have never asked him. I play in dropped D and DADGAD tunings and also in open C quite a lot but compensate by playing with slightly heavier strings.

Thanks There was a 7.43% chance of the person 'using statistics as a drunken man uses lampposts - for support rather than illumination' quote coming up.

Fascinating article and some really interesting links to other things (like the Radiohead experiment). I'm a Guardian reader normally as we get a copy in the office each day - apart from over Xmas - but missed the article. When was it in the paper?

I use one in a similar way you describe. I have a set up at home if I want to multitrack stuff but if I just want to practice something or do something quickly I use a Zoom H2. I'm very happy with it and it goes with me to sessions, singarounds, work, the car, and is about a foot away from where I'm typing at the moment. I've used it to record gigs (indoor and outdoor); to practice me singing with a guitar; practice singing; practice with my wife; practice with various bands; sessions in pubs and singarounds; and I'm very happy with the results. If you want to multitrack it would be no use as it doesn't - I'd do it at home if I want to do that. But for what I want it for and the cost it worked out fine and I have no regrets. Quality is decent and I occasionally tweak it on the computer afterwards just to adjust levels. Some examples - 1 Recorded at an outdoor gig in the summer with it perched on the front of the stage - full band (Box of Goats) with drums, two guitars and bass and vox: EXAMPLE 1 2 Recorded in the car in work car park - perched on dashboard in front of car. Me learning a song I wanted to sing. Guitar and vocal: EXAMPLE 2 3 Recorded in front room at home perched on middle of coffee table. Two guitars, two voices (and mobile phone). Practice of a song we hadn't done before for a gig. Self, wife and friend Mark: EXAMPLE 3 4 Recorded in a village hall playing with some friends to entertain a Womens Institute night (!) - recorder sitting on floor behind players. Two fiddles, guitar, whistle and humming : EXAMPLE 4 5 Recorded in our local pub at a singaround - unrehearsed and just how it happened; recorder sitting on shelf in corner of pub. This has two or three guitars, two concertinas at least, harmonica, three fiddles, bass, trumpet, lots of voices: EXAMPLE 5 Like they used to say in the American Express ads - Never leave home it Hope that's of some use. It definitely doesn't need a lot of setting up and the sound is ok as long as you don't let it distort.

Looks like a bargain to me! Unless this is a better bargain!!! With friends like that who needs enemies?

The picture with you at the drums with the BIIIIIIIG smile is a lovely picture.

Enjoyed the You Tube too Glad to see you going for it

I still play Naked Ladies sometimes - scarey to think I first heard it in about 1972ish and learned to play it by listening to the album. Play Alices Restaurant too occasionally and nip into a few ragtime pieces Angie occasionally but haven't played it all the way through for people to listen to for probably 4 years - I originally learned it on a beach in Cornwall many years ago A John Renbourn called Cat(something) which is the hardest thing I know and struggle with a lot A Lunasa tune called Inion Ni Scanlain which is a pipe piece I adapted for guitar (the story of how and why it was written is beautiful and it is a gorgeous tune - "Inion Ni Scannlain translated to English means Miss Scanlon, or daughter of Scanlan. Miss Pauline Scanlon is a pretty young girl from Dingle in Co. Kerry, an amazing little town on the west coast of Ireland where I spent seven magic years of my life and where I learned to play traditional Irish music. Pauline is currently the singer in the Sharon Shannon band. I wrote this waltz for her and then I asked her to marry me." Donogh Hennessy [the writer] about this tune. Richard Thompson Beeswing which I learned one evening last week on a whim Lots of messing about in Drop D and DADGAD

I'll ask my son to have a listen as he is probably better equipped than I am to comment. I would guess that the best person to comment on technique is his teacher as that is the function of a teacher - if his teacher can't advise on that I think I'd question whether he is the right teacher! I think I put someweher else on here that my son has gone through various teachers over the last few years - his first private teacher we parted company with mutually as it seemed to be just him coming round and playing a few 12 bars which I think I could have done myself! The next was a good, performing rock guitarist who was useful up until the part when my son wanted some qualifications (to let him get into college in the future) and he now has a more technique based teacher who has very much concetrated on technique which has improved his playing a lot. I rarely comment too much on technical bits apart from I sometimes comment that his bends are not as good as some other parts of his technique and tend to comment positively on things that he plays that work for me and mention it if some things don't work. Having said that it's better to try out things even if they don't work so I rarely am too critical on that. I tend to leave most of the technical stuff to his teacher.