What Do You Guys Think About Theory?

[LayneGreene]

I'm hesitant to start this thread here, because everywhere else that I see it it tends to spiral downward very quickly. A friend asked me to write an article about this for his blog, and I saw a similar thread on reddit so I've been thinking about this a lot.

What, as guitar players, do you think about music theory? How many of you feel it "limits" your playing, or that it's useless and understanding it better does nothing to make you play guitar better?

Personally, I think of theory as a language, my biggest use of theory is communicating to other musicians what I'm doing or what I want them to do. Also for practise, working out new voicings, figuring out how to get the music from my head and out from my amp. As a guitar player who was working on harmony before ever touching a guitar, it really baffles me not only how many guitarists won't learn theory, but how many guitarists go out of their way to complain about it making music mechanical.

Discuss

*edit* I <3 Theory

Edited January 11, 2013 by LayneGreene

[john]

It takes a certain amount of effort to get to a point where the theory you have learnt is really useful. Certainly the biggest benefit is in communicating with other musicians, and if you ever do any session work, or want to use session musicians, having an understanding of even the rudiments of music theory are an advantage.

Depending on your emphasis as a musician, it makes a diffference as to which bit of theory you will use most. For example, understanding chord progressions, melody construction and the basics of rhythm are a definite help to a songwriter or composer. Understanding scales, chord theory and rhythm are a definite advantage to a guitarist, a broad range of understanding is essential for music arrangement, the abililty to read music is advantageous to session musicians.

Understanding theory not only helps you with your own music and performance, but it is very helpful in understanding the music of others. True, much can be accomplished without learning to read or write music, but anything that adds know how cannot be described as a limitation. After all, ignorance is the true limitation as it removes choice. What people mean is it's hard to get your head into, it takes effort I would rather spend playing my guitar, and music theory isn't fun. Fundamentally those who slam theory are generally speaking from a position of lack of understanding, a position of "can't be assed" or a position of the ill informed. Sad but true.

It's up to the individual, and I see little point in bullying people one way or another. Not knowing is a disadvantage no matter how you paint it, but it's up to the individual if they want to invest time in learning. For me, it was time well spent.

[Loonatic]

I pretty much agree with everything said. Theory is definitely a plus. And the biggest plus, like you guys said, is communicating with other musicians.

But there are many more advantages. Anything you learn is an advantage anyway. On the other hand, I think it's important to have fun playing, which to me is more important than theory. That may not a good comparison, both are important of course. And a little theory can go a long way.

[TapperMike]

It's a slippery slope. Studying Theory was a detriment to me in the early years because I took it all at rudimentary face value. When you go down the path of reductionism you can actually find doors closing on you rather then opening. Fortunately the cure for me was to study more theory and precisely jazz theory as a means of "awakening" to the opportunities found in re harmonization and melodic development. While they worked great in jazz and fusion settings they also could work against me in folk/rock settings.

There is something to be said for the earnestly of not playing extended chords and not always being a slave to chord changes in your melody lines.

In as far as the rest goes. When working with others I'll usually score out the progression and leave some holes. I've yet to play with a bass player where I've had to spoon feed them everything. See the Chord > play the chord (or at least play to the root of the chord) Occasionally I have had to work out a few ideas with keyboard players as to how to get them to blend in without being stale or stepping on the rhythm guitar work. But I've also been fairly good at writing first and second rhythm parts allowing someone to lay the foundational rhythm and then being able to come in with supportive fills.

Layne you have what most people who cry for theory need the most...Strong technique. If you are seeking to expand then I would encourage you to expand your technique and broaden your instrumentation awareness. Seriously you have a very very good foundation to work from and I think your concern is that your bored with yourself. Which isn't uncommon. Simple things like taking up the bass or developing different finger-style approaches or embracing other instruments will help to bring it home for you.

I realize your band is scattered to the four winds right now but that shouldn't stop you from thinking about playing with others who come from a different perspective. You are in an ideal time of your life to do that. You're not the only musician in your school or area and I think if you have the chance to sit in with others even if they are many years your senior that's what you should be doing.

[TapperMike]

There are a lot of people who... quite simply are gifted. They get things that we have to work out. And because they aren't chained to the system it offers them a lot more freedom simply not knowing..... Like Paul McCartney or James Taylor. Both know a little to get by and make due with the rest.

Let's take James Taylor. Can't site read can work a really good song. Especialy in his earlier works he'll go thru a lot of chromatic walkdowns or walk ups with little or no relevance to key. He'll sort of just hang a chord out there and then play a passage and hope he can grab another chord down the line that will align. He also has some idiosyncracies with timing. As a result trying to arrange for him is kind of a bitch. It's like he's got to go in sing and play then everyone else has to come in figure out what he's doing fill in the space without stepping on him and lob it into an arrangement. No one can tell James Taylor...Hey just play it like this and that will give us room to build a riff around it like that. Now I love JT owned every album his was the first concert I ever went to, seen him a million times tried to learn all of his songs but. It's the thing where he has is own way of doing things and if you try to crack down on him and make him fit then it isn't going to happen.

Same with Paul McCartney. He'll go on a tangent of which would seem beyond rhyme or reason like the bridge to "And I love her" where it's goes from a major key to a minor key that isn't anywhere near connected and it's a direct modulation but he pulls it off and rolls it back in. This isn't one of those things you learn in music school. Usually when modulating it's always to a neighboring or at least somewhat related key and if not there is usually a cycling method to get to it. The Eagles were one of the few who would try to connect going from a major to a minor key but atleast there would be some connective tissue between them.

Like.... The chorus of "Best of my love"

These are things that one wouldn't learn to do if one were simply to embrace common theory. There are also these little close to but not quite things that run very well but you have to force your way thru not giving into conventional wisdom and taking one small step out of tried and true to develop a little character. These types of things aren't going to be found in a book of modern chord progressions and they are the type of things if you were learning the songs you would prolly accept only for the sake of the song and not as a vehicle for your own writing.

[TapperMike]

Well I won't argue with that. Everything you are saying is spot on. Learning notation (which is something I didn't do early on) was the best thing that every happened to me and it sparked a future of successes that I never would have realized elsewise. I wasn't one of those learn to read sheet music at 6 yrs old types.

Learning notation taught me things that tab never would not that I read a lot of notation today. It also opened way too many doors as a gigging guitarist both in the studio and on the stage. I'd encourage someone to learn theory but I wouldn't advise that people take it as a mantra. Sure know as much as you can but don't be afraid to experiment thereafter even if it doesn't fit neatly in the collective theory box.

[LayneGreene]

I'd encourage someone to learn theory but I wouldn't advise that people take it as a mantra. Sure know as much as you can but don't be afraid to experiment thereafter even if it doesn't fit neatly in the collective theory box.

Ultimately this for me.

[LayneGreene]

Hopefully, something here is helpful to the original poster-LOL

It's all useful, I mean, I already know my views on theory and i think I'm pretty set in them. But on the other hand this is a discussion topic i tend to really enjoy, and this is probably the first time I've gotten to see it discussed intelligently. It usually turns into people calling each other idiots after the two main POV's have been made. Can make for entertaining reading, but not usually insightful information. This is exactly the type of discussion I was hoping for

[LayneGreene]

Layne you have what most people who cry for theory need the most...Strong technique. If you are seeking to expand then I would encourage you to expand your technique and broaden your instrumentation awareness. Seriously you have a very very good foundation to work from and I think your concern is that your bored with yourself. Which isn't uncommon. Simple things like taking up the bass or developing different finger-style approaches or embracing other instruments will help to bring it home for you.

I realize your band is scattered to the four winds right now but that shouldn't stop you from thinking about playing with others who come from a different perspective. You are in an ideal time of your life to do that. You're not the only musician in your school or area and I think if you have the chance to sit in with others even if they are many years your senior that's what you should be doing.

I think your probably right about this! I've been practising a bit with a guy in his 30's. Monster guitar player! I'm going to try and line up a mini tour with him before I start work for the summer. Been picking up my old trumpet recently too, I'm getting pretty bored with piano so I'm staying away from it for a while. Thinking about getting an accordion or maybe a banjo, not sure yet though.

[TapperMike]

Piano drove me insane. A good deal of that was I really didn't seek out a teacher and I tried to piecemeal what I already knew about reading standard notation Had I tried to cultivate a piano persona it would have prolly worked out better for me.

Now I'm trying to cultivate some ideas on the ztar which will prolly engulf the rest of my life of playing although I'm not seeing much reward.

This is me a few years ago

Notice how I'm able to kick out a single note line with my right hand tapping only while my left had lays down the chords. That's where my journey started but not where it's ending. I'm trying to incorporate different ideas like playing a bassline with the left and melody with the right and I'm also trying out other ideas such as right hand reharmonization playing a chord melody tapped with the right hand only and trying to suppliment it with left hand chords or other things on the left.

I've also flipped things around playing basslines with my right hand only and supporting it with harmony on the right. There are somethings that simply having a guitar setup and being able to pick/strum that simply don't come to light when trying to tap especially with the left hand. It's really hard to get a left hand rhythm pattern down when it's all off the left. It's something I struggle with, give it a rest then come back and struggle again with.

I want to have a "Complete" soloist approach to the ztar. Unfortunately stick playing isn't the same. and I struggle with adapting keyboard ideas. It's funny. I'll pick up a guitar and most if not all my guitar playing will come back. I feel I'm riding high and wonder why I struggle with the z. But there is only so long can play the same old same old and not long for something new. It's a struggle that's for sure

[LayneGreene]

I had an early start with piano, (started on my 4th birthday) I think if I hadn't of started that early I never would have progressed very far.

What does a regular day practise routine look like on a z?

[TapperMike]

If only it were regular.

My right hand can play any melodic line as a solo instrument but I can't get a bend out of it. I've been thinking of getting an expression pedal and sending a bend control to it. My right hand does okay but it can't keep up with my right hand guitar playing. The neck is very thick on the z6 and it gets stiff. Between the two I've developed several approaches to tapping with hammers. A ztar can be set to hammer ons and pull offs or set to play more pianoistic so that more then one note per string can be active. I've developed several left+ right hand techniques to accommodate this type of playing. It's fast but I have to constantly slow it down to get an authentic "lick/phrasing" happening because it can turn mechanical sounding quickly. Most of that stuff I leave off to the side as I try to expand more of a "Chord consciousness" approach.

I have two basic tunings. Standard guitar tuning and standard 6 string bass tuning which is BEADGC. You have to remember I can't play open notes and for me to dig down to a c in the bass note I've got to make some exceptions here and there.

I can play a lot of full chords and jazz guitar chords off the right but some of the more simple barre chords are near impossible with hammers off. I try to extend my sense of chord voicings as would a keyboard player especially a contemporary gospel player might approach them with tight clusters.

Today I tried to transcribe the piano part to Billy Joel's Just the way you are. It's very odd to try and develop a "flow" when your fighting out the voicings. Some times the right hand works better carrying the bass notes and sometimes the left does. Then there is a matter of figuring out positions and movement. The right hand always works better if I fixate on a position and keep it there. sure I can hop around a little but then trying to figure out the "where am I going to play it and where am I coming from while where I'm moving to can be daunting. It's a slow and aggravating process. The hard part is while I can get a grip on rhythm for one hand and the other one goes out the door.

This also true in "Soloist" type performances. I'll learn the right alone just fine and then I'll learn the left alone just fine but when I put them together all hell breaks loose. I can get away with a lot more bass and guitar (accordian style) then my buddy jeff

But when I do that my right hand goes out of whack.

I want to play more like my buddy Mike Bianco

But I also want that Bill Evans thing where he does reharmonization with the right hand and then compliments it with the right.

That to me is the epitome of grace and style. especially his sense of meter through it all. usually to pull that off even after I get a clue to where my fingers are going I have to line everything up vertically and tackle things a quarter measure at a time. n Which if you've ever fought for a few hours over a few measures can be quite frustration.

Edited January 13, 2013 by TapperMike

[Prometheus]

I personally found it very liberating learning musical theory. Once you do, you have a transferrable skillset and knowledge that you can apply to any musical instrument ever built. If you know the theory and want to learn a new instrument, all you have to learn is the muscle memory.

Does it make you play the guitar better?

No. I'm still as mediocre a guitarist as I was before I learned it.

Does it make you a better composer?

Without a doubt. How can you compose a song with a clever mode change in it if you don't know what a mode is? Any composer with no knowledge of theory is a diliettante. Imagine Beethoven having no clue what music is about and just rattling out the Ninth by trial and error? Not likely.

The other point about learning Western musical theory is that it's not as difficult as people think. It's only the amount of jargon attached to it that makes it daunting. Basically, you have to be able to count to twelve to have the intellectual wherewithal to handle musical theory.

[James Anderson]

i think music theory is a great thing to learn i have tried playing scales i must admit they mean nothing to me the way i look at it scales are notes music is notes but scales are not music i have tried taking chords in a key play around with them to make a song with no success yes the chords work together but being a left handed person with a chord directory in my head i can work out a chord progression out in my head that works and hear the three inversion of a chord as seperate sounding chords something that i dont think music theory covers

[Horras]

Music theory is a great and useful tool. You can understand songs, play songs, feel more confident and develop your playing much faster if you're aware of theory.

It can limit your playing, if it's not rooted in your spine.. And that takes some time. The first years of theory studies, some people often think about theory as a "main thing" when they´re playing.. Then it limits the "inner musicality". When you get the basic theory under your skin, you can focus on your musicality and the theory knowledge is just there as a confidence tool, without disturbing the playing.

I think one should apply theory as much as you can when you're practising. When you're playing live you should try to focus mostly on the music itself. I think

[TapperMike]

There is a lot of mechanics to playing an instrument. Getting your fingers to the right position/shape and being able to apply a rhythm to what you are doing as well as embracing articulation. Rhythm can be mechanical or flowing but both of those require practice to attain and it's a big world filled with plenty of rhythm to go around. Everything has a rhythm to it musically even if you choose to ignore it. Mastery of rhythm is essential. I've heard a lot of great drummers and a few poor ones. The big difference between the two is thier command of rhythm and dynamics. Great lead guitarists, woodwind, brass, strings all share common traits of well timed and well articulated solo's They don't just stumble onto rubato they learn it and practice it. The same is true of Bass players, Keyboard players and...the always underrated rhythm guitar. It all starts and ends with tight articulated rhythm.

Granted singers and wind (brass and wood) have to work harder to get there because of the whole breathing thing. But they all have to float rhythm,

[SergeOfArniVillage]

An understanding of music theory is of the utmost importance to a musician... period.

Great music can come in all shapes, forms, and sizes, just like living, breathing people.

The more one understands the various angles you can look at music, the more doors open to appreciation of music that may never have even been conceived of before. Anyone can enjoy a song with a good melody and a good harmony -- there's certainly nothing wrong with that. But music theory expands the comprehension of music on a deeper level, so one can enjoy pieces of music that would cause others to simply tilt their head and think to themselves, "What utter nonsense".

To say that this piece by Beethoven is a sublime masterpiece is still, somehow, an understatement. Knowledge of music theory is definitely required to appreciate it fully, however.

[LayneGreene]

There is a lot of mechanics to playing an instrument. Getting your fingers to the right position/shape and being able to apply a rhythm to what you are doing as well as embracing articulation. Rhythm can be mechanical or flowing but both of those require practice to attain and it's a big world filled with plenty of rhythm to go around. Everything has a rhythm to it musically even if you choose to ignore it. Mastery of rhythm is essential. I've heard a lot of great drummers and a few poor ones. The big difference between the two is thier command of rhythm and dynamics. Great lead guitarists, woodwind, brass, strings all share common traits of well timed and well articulated solo's They don't just stumble onto rubato they learn it and practice it. The same is true of Bass players, Keyboard players and...the always underrated rhythm guitar. It all starts and ends with tight articulated rhythm.

Granted singers and wind (brass and wood) have to work harder to get there because of the whole breathing thing. But they all have to float rhythm,

This x100000! I think a lot of people spend their time ignoring rhythm for to long. Learning melody and harmony is great, but without rhythm you'll still sound awful.

[LayneGreene]

I'm going to have to disagree with you. Some of my biggest breakthroughs playing live have been when I've been thinking of whats coming up in a few bars, it definitely relies on muscle memory to an extent, but if you're not thinking about what you're playing you're just going to rehash the same old licks you've been playing. in situations like these you usually aren't responding very well to what the rest of the band is playing. To say theory has NO good place is like saying grammar has NO good place in giving a speech.

[SergeOfArniVillage]

Many, if not most, if not all good players not only play with technical skill, rhythm and feeling, they give their best performances when they play from what has been termed "muscle memory" - when they can play without consciously thinking about it. "Music theory," like any theorizing, is an activity of the thinking conscious mind. Thinking about the music may have its useful place for some in developing the music and perhaps, to some extent, even in honing the performance of it - burning it into "muscle memory." But, theorizing or otherwise consciously thinking about the music is a hindrance to giving the best performance the musician can give, and every musician - stage or studio - worth a damn I know thinks that is of the utmost importance.

I was speaking from the standpoint of someone wishing to compose music, and from the standpoint of one wishing to enjoy music that deviates from what is obvious. I wasn't even talking about performers -- pianists, guitarists, violinists, etc.

Yet even then, knowledge of music theory, combined with muscle memory, makes learning and retaining a piece of music much easier than just seeing music as random notes on a page the composer decided to throw on there, or as just a motion you make to cause a sound you want. Like you said, it makes a performance better when you know what it is you're "saying" in the music. It's like the difference between reading words on a page, and comprehending what you're reading.

However, I think what you're saying is that it would be detrimental to a performance to over-think it while performing. I'd definitely have to agree -- straightforwardness in performance is a good thing, a lot of times.