Rock music is dead, now what?

[TapperMike]

 

 

 

 

I'll save you having to go through all of this....  If he video doesn't start at about the 33 minute mark then jump ahead because much of it is just a recounting of history from the late 80's onward.

Beato knows his stuff.   He's very much an industry insider as a producer.  Rock acts don't get signed anymore.  Contemporary rock radio stations aren't out there.  The closest you'll come is classic rock stations.

 

One of the things Roger Linn stated about why he created the linnstrument was so that contemporary artists would bring back the missing elements of solo performance / expression in contemporary music which is sadly absent from EDM.   

 

I dabble in loop based music because it's fun.  I'm not great and I'm not serious about it.  I'm always serious about rock and jazz playing.  I think it could be a wonderful impetus for melody and lyric writing.  

[Rudi]

Are the younger rock bands over? Maybe so. My radar woundn't notice.

 

Its certainly been in a rut since the 70s. It has developed, but it hasn't risen.

 

Jerry Garcia once asked "Are we just going to rehash the whole f*#ing thing again?" He wasn't right but he wasn't too far off either.

 

Loops? To me loops are just rhythm supplements of a couple of bars long. I did enjoy sequencing music in the 90s. It was fun and certainly creative.

[Just1L]

It will be interesting to see what happens with rock in the next decade or so. Here in St. Louis there are a lot of School of Rock businesses that have kids coming in droves. Just listening wise I can only speak for the kids in Webster but they are very much into ACDC, Van Halen, Cheap Trick, all the 80's rock. Some into heavier stuff. Probably because of Stranger Things but one thing is for certain, they like it.

[MonoStone]

This guy is talking SHITE.... utter shite... The opinion that EDM is 'easy'... 'stick some loops together anyone can do it'...is bollocks. 

 

Stuff like that really bugs me. EDM didn't get big because it's easy. Most people who knock it as 'easy, just throwing loops together' have not really grasped what it's all about or how much work and devotion goes into it in order to make something really, really good. Anyone who thinks it's that easy isn't listening properly, and certainly hasn't got the ability to write and produce a hit EDM track themselves. Electronic music, in all the various genres, is just as creative, valid, and (in terms of doing it exceptionally well) as hard as making music in a rock band. In some ways it's harder, because it often (not always) involves being both the creative artist and the producer (at least to some extent), there's not the reliance on separate engineers and  producers the same as rock bands.

 

As for 'rock' music being dead... I don't know. Guitar bands are certainly not dead, and I know for sure that a ton of kids still enjoy making and listening to rock music. I don't know what the situation is in terms of ROCK (as in hard/heavy rock) bands struggling to be signed, I have no idea...but if that's hard it's not because EDM is just 'easy'... so this blokes attitude, opinions and reasoning just bugged me. 

 

 

[TapperMike]

The only two "English speaking" styles that dominate the charts internationally are EDM and Country.  With the exception of "Classic Rock" stations rock has pretty much evaporated from conventional airwaves across the US and elsewhere.  

 

Show me the guitar based band in last years top 100

http://www.billboard.com/charts/year-end/2016/hot-100-songs

 

These are the industry leaders.  

When I talk to bussers and hostesses at work (as they are in their teens about listening habits... It's all EDM  When I talk to waitresses and cooks in their 20's or listen into what they have on spotify it's mostly EDM or Country.  Only when it hits the 35+ range does it become about hip hop and metal.  Once in a great while someone pulls up an 80's station to tease me because I know all the words and sing along.  We all have a good laugh at the past.

 

Major labels won't sign rock bands because there isn't a venue to market them effectively.  If spottily or itunes develops a logrythmn that states..This many people like edm it will push more edm at them.  If there are no rock stations except for classic rock ones then there is no way to get a contemporary rock band on a radio station.  I like Bluegrass, I've seen some great young bluegrass players on YT one off shot of a bluegrass band on a late night tv show will not turn the world over where there are bluegrass stations everywhere.

 

 

What people listen to is based on what they can access to a certain degree.  Sure there are rock schools... so what.  I love surfing for self produced music videos of talented performer of all ages.  If you are a musician/songwriter then you would be wise to consider a career in the even smaller field of being a producer.  Record labels can invest between 100,000 and 350,000 on a hit single.  With that type of money they don't want a band that will break up or not be on par.  The labels higher the producer as lyricist, track man and engineer.  Or pair three of them up to get the job done while the front person takes all the credit for singing / acting.

 

 

[starise]

I wouldn't say EDM is easy. Maybe easier with the right tools. The element of practicing and playing an instrument is largely removed from that genre. In that sense, it is loop driven. There's a lot a person can do creatively with loops though.

[TapperMike]

The tools are available to everyone... 

 

One of the funniest things I've ever heard is Deadmou5 whining about how much easier it would be if he actually played keys because he had to manually insert chords via a piano roll editor via a mouse.  On the other hand.... I find that my musical ability can be a plus or a minus when working in the field of loop building.  On the one hand it's very easy for me to come up with musical ideas with little to no background beats.  It's hard as I always want to extend my playing and improvise.   I avoid prepackaged instrument loops... Mostly because they suck and I find the time to go through them is too consuming without desired results.  I'd much rather generate my own loops and assemble later.

 

Which leads to the mashups that I think would be a good thing for anyone to get interested in.  Me or anyone puts together a loop or two.  Someone else adds to the loops and shows what they can do with them.  It's a nice little project somewhat like Photoshop Tennis  Someone takes a germ of an idea and expands on it.  Sort of like a non-live improvisation thing for bouncing ideas around.

 

 

[starise]

Mike I would disagree that all the tools aren't available to everyone.

 

Deadmou5 has some awesome stuff probably out of reach for the average person. Like any other genre, it still takes some level of what you could call talent. Maybe not musical ability on an instrument, but ability to get into the tech and make it sound like something good. 

 

In loop construction a copy or Ableton  would go a long way towards that goal. Simply record a loop and let that program fit it to the beat. In that sense it isn't difficult to do. It's the other stuff that makes it what it is. The way you combine the loops, the stuff you do with synth control,automation and effects.

 

This is going to come off as sounding cocky. I don't particularly like EDM music but I am confident I could make it if I wanted to.

[MonoStone]

7 hours ago, TapperMike said:

Show me the guitar based band in last years top 100

http://www.billboard.com/charts/year-end/2016/hot-100-songs

 

These are the industry leaders.  

 

Well for a kick off Ed (can't stand him) Sheeran's just about every kids favourite over here with just his 3/4 scale acoustic. I imagine he's doing well worldwide too. 

 

But just because EDM is topping the billboard chart doesn't make guitar bands DEAD anyway. Over here we still have a big guitar band scene, and whilst they might not be topping the billboard chart they're filling huge venues. I can't imagine you don't have similar is the US... I don't keep track of labels and scenes over there really, although Sub Pop is still very cool (maybe not ROCK but still largely guitar based bands). And it's a long time since I bothered listening to 'metal', I grew out of it in my teens, but I believe there's still a demand and plenty of new bands in Europe, I'd imagine that's not totally dead in the states either.

 

I already agreed that EDM and Hip Hop outnumbers rock and guitar bands but that doesn't mean that rock is DEAD. I mean METAL has never been POP, it's rarely made the charts in the UK but always had a devoted following. 

 

There's life outside the Billboard hot 100   All you're talking about really is 'what is currently 'POP'.... although again, Ed and a ton of Ed types have recently made acoustic guitar music into 'pop'.

[MonoStone]

6 hours ago, TapperMike said:

The tools are available to everyone... 

 

One of the funniest things I've ever heard is Deadmou5 whining about how much easier it would be if he actually played keys because he had to manually insert chords via a piano roll editor via a mouse.  On the other hand.... I find that my musical ability can be a plus or a minus when working in the field of loop building.  On the one hand it's very easy for me to come up with musical ideas with little to no background beats.  It's hard as I always want to extend my playing and improvise.   I avoid prepackaged instrument loops... Mostly because they suck and I find the time to go through them is too consuming without desired results.  I'd much rather generate my own loops and assemble later.

 

Which leads to the mashups that I think would be a good thing for anyone to get interested in.  Me or anyone puts together a loop or two.  Someone else adds to the loops and shows what they can do with them.  It's a nice little project somewhat like Photoshop Tennis  Someone takes a germ of an idea and expands on it.  Sort of like a non-live improvisation thing for bouncing ideas around.

 

 

 

Honestly I think it's a nonsense all this 'EDM is easy'... some might be... but I challenge anyone to write and produce a hit EDM track that stands up against and gets the appreciation that the 'hot' tracks get. It's a different mindset but no less difficult than rock when it comes to making something that millions of people love. 

 

To me, as an artist, it's like saying that digital artists have less value than those who paint with a brush on canvas.  And it fits with the very wrong idea many people have that CGi is made by computers lol... like someone presses the 'Make Cartoon Character' button at Pixar and as if by magic it appears   Whereas those of us who know, know that it's all made by artists and animators with skills way beyond most traditional artists, slaving over 3D sculpts and mesh building for months or years, where the mouse and stylus have become the brushes and the software is the canvas. I see this attitude of 'EDM or Electronic music is easy/easier' as very much the same.... like Kraftwerk were just clicking the 'hit song' button to churn out classic albums   

 

 

[MonoStone]

10 minutes ago, Jenn said:

I don't think rock is dead.. but a lot of people prefer EDM because it seems to be the accepted genre in social settings.. for some stuPID reason

I'm glad that you, representing 'the kids'  agree that rock isn't dead.... 

 

I suppose the reason EDM is socially acceptable is that if you put it on at a party everyone can dance without really listening... That's always been the same though, pop has always, mostly, been just 'fun' music....

 

... but a friend of mine, who until recently was in a signed guitar band, made a good point to me - he said something like 'it's easy to write melancholy guitar tunes to sound cool, but try to write a HAPPY song without sounding like a total dick and you realise that's a lot harder' . 

 

 

[MonoStone]

39 minutes ago, Jenn said:

At the same time, there are a lot of wanna-be's out there because the sounds are available, but like you said, not everyone is able to make a hit.. and those guys have a sound of their own.

 

Yeah, well said... and that was a point I'd tried to make (but I waffle too much)... 

 

But I suppose that's been the same with guitar music too... when Punk happened everyone thought they could be in a great band, thousands of wannabes, and a general opinion that it was easy and not really music... like...you don't have to be able to play or sing or write a good tune, just bash out some crap... and that was wrong too lol... I mean Nevermind The Bollocks was an incredible, outstanding example of brilliant songwriting and performance.

[Rudi]

The Southern Rain link reports 'not available' Jenn.

[TapperMike]

One could easily copy and paste loops into your average daw and map out the same type of set features as is used in the live arrangement view.  It prolly wouldn't be as entertaining.  Many daws including Mixcraft have borrowed from the arrangment view in Live without adding all the glitches that live was prone to.  The Live x/y effects controller is a joke.  I don't miss it one bit.  Hell I'm happy to be rid of abelton live.

 

I've got a ztar without the fancy lights

 

 

I can do the exact same thing on my ztar as this guy is doing here.  I don't have the fancy lights.  It did take a lot of mapping.  Still much faster than Deadmous5 using a piano screen.  I can also access effects and synthesis parameters via the knobs.  Don't need Live.  I'll grant you that it does take some experimentation and hard work if you want professional results.  If you have a decent midi keyboard  controller or grid surface with full midi implementation it will speed up the process.

 

Following up on Rudi's statement.  As the punk movement fell away because you had many people having guitars that didn't think they needed to apply themselves to make music this gave rise to the Synth Pop music..... Great Documentary.

 

On the one hand you had people with little to no knowledge or skills with regards to formal understanding of music theory simply experimenting with sequencers and synths and on the other hand you had people like Howard Jones and Hall and Oates (Yes H&O) who could marry the two worlds.   Today's EDM producers are not that different.  You have those who are willing to look deeper into production technology yet are forced into using pre fabricated loops or manually inserting notes into a grid / piano roll layout like Deadmous5 and then you have those like Jeremy Ellis who is a virtuoso on Maschine

 

 

 

We as musicians rarely tap into the potential of our daws.  And what used to be the domain of only Akai MPC's and/or abelton live is quite possible in other daws as well.  Here's the hard part.  It's work.   

 

Lets take the basic sampler tracking from the old days of cut and chop with mpc's  guess what nuendo has one,

Same with Cubase, same with mixcraft actually mixcraft has three if you include the performance panel

 

 

Your musicianship is an asset in the world of EDM as it reduces production time and allows you to think, perform in a manner that those who do not have musical background would not have.  It does not however supersede your production skills.   If you study and embrace the techology and theories behind production expect it to be work.  The finished product is more about your abilities to master the environment than chasing high end plugins.

 

There is nothing special about this compressor with the exception of the skill/knowledge that the engineer is using.

 

One of the things Beato is quick to point out about EDM is the production quality.  Which does require a great deal of hard work even in skilled hands.

[TapperMike]

17 hours ago, Jenn said:

Also.. I don't know what this massive resurgence of the Foo Fighters is.. but everyone seems to be a fan now a days.. 

 

 

Yeah the Doors had several comebacks as well.  The Monkess had huge success touring,  Steely Dan was a bigger hit in the 90's~2010 simply becaused they toured.  Look at Fleetwood Mac.  None of them are on the Billboard top 100 either.  Twenty-Five years makes anything that was a hit a classic.

 

With regards to covers of "conventional songs" done in an EDM environment.   Actually remixes have been going on since the late 80's.

Another phenomenom is reversing the process and arranging EDM for traditional instruments in bygone era styles.

Take a look at PMJ

 

 

While I love their renditions there is no way that they'd ever have a record deal or an outlet that would take the music to the masses If they wrote originals in this form.

[TapperMike]

17 hours ago, Jenn said:

 

But my band.. we're gonna try to play some of the parties  and we're gonna try to play some Pat Benatar, Muse, Maroon 5, and Paramore.. 

 

 

More Power to you.

[Snowman]

It really all depends on how you judge.

 

There are still classical artists making debuts at Carnegie Hall, selling CDs and making a living from their art.

There are still easy listening artists playing cabarets, selling CDs and making a living from their art.

There are still rock bands playing MSG. Though I wouldn't pay a dime to see any of them. 

There isn't a hip hop or rap artist that I care a damn about. 

EDM SUCKS unless the human element is the main point (Caravan Palace for instance).

 

The point is, how do you judge success in the music industry in today's market? Obviously record companies are fairly obsolete. It seems people get their promos from the net. Which makes the choices limitless. Which means you have to have great search skills, and be able to tell the difference between great music and crap. The last artists I found were from promoted videos. Melanie Martinez and Kate Miller Heidke. 

 

No form of music is dead. Is rock the #1 most popular music in 2017? No. But, it hasn't been since Grunge essentially destroyed it in the 90s. Are there still great rock/alternative bands coming out since the 90s? Of course. Just nowhere near as many. 

 

When I used to go clubbing in the 80s, you had to choose which shows you wanted to see. Because there were real (signed popular acts) every night of the week. I'd go to the Palladium for the early shows and leave there to see any club show which wouldn't start till at least midnight. Now, I'm lucky if there's a show every couple of months I want to see. 

 

On a cute note: When Billy Idol released his first solo album, he played the Ritz and Peppermint Lounge (at one Thunders show, he was so drunk he fell down the stairs after the show) in the same night. Both shows were great. 

 

 

[MonoStone]

On 11/11/2017 at 7:56 PM, TapperMike said:

I don't know what this massive resurgence of the Foo Fighters is

 

Down to Dave Grohl... very outspoken, every musicians friend, kind of a champion of guitar music... I think. He really knows how to work the 'biz' I'd say! Smart bloke...

[Richard Tracey]

For me I think 'Rock' has just morphed into a homogenised guitar based pop sensibility now. In the UK we have lots of guitar based artists and bands who probably think they go under the 'Rock' moniker, but are mostly just shit.... bland and soulless.

 

I think hip-hop and r'n'b are more popular than EDM. But that is another conversation altogether and I am not going there tonight or I would put John and Rob to shame with the number of paragraphs I would write.

 

EDM is a very generic term. You have some EDM which is based around hands in the air like you just don't care (that the DJ is just jumping around and turning a couple of knobs - which most of them are!!). Some of them are decent and come up with some nice melodies and tunes, but they are far and few.

 

Electronic music is another beast altogether. There is so much fantastic music out there waiting to be discovered. Most of these artists play their own music and don't draw it into a DAW. Most of them have a live set-up that is similar to a normal band and unfortunately, most of them are undiscovered because we get force fed what to like and listen to.

 

I think something only truly dies when we let it. If we keep talking about and championing the types of music we like, then it can never die. We just have to get enough people to listen to it.

 

Peace out.

 

R

[Rudi]

In my (now utterly ruined) iTunes library, my personal genre is called 'Rhubarb'.

 

I didnt care to nail my music to any mast, telegraph pole or hitching post. You can identify music with genre components but no-one can define genre limits because its a wholly artificial construct. Its only a poor attempt to order our thoughts & nothing more.

 

When I perish so will rhubarb. It wont matter because I wont be around to care. When mankind perishes so will music, and it wont matter either for the same reason.

 

I have a suggestion. Open a window. Get some fresh air.