Pop rarely innovates

[Nightwolf]

These words he speaks are true, we're all humanary stew

Bet you weren't expecting that though, extra appreciation credits go to anyone who can tell me what that's from ...Without doing a web search...on your hono(u)r

[BongStuff]

Bet you weren't expecting that though, extra appreciation credits go to anyone who can tell me what that's from ...Without doing a web search...on your hono(u)r

wow talk about thread hijack

no sorry no idea - let me guess - some old rocker?

BS

[Nightwolf]

yup, pretty blatent huh? Sorry, I'd been drinking.

NOW BACK TO YOUR REGULARLY PROGRAMMED DISCUSSION

[Rudi]

It's the fault of the brainless people who pay for crap, money men follow the money

Most of the time the public dont have a choice. For years I have bought cds from the abroad (mostly US) because those artists are unknown & unrepresented in the UK.

If all you have on offer is crap, an informed choice (and taste) is of little use.

The mythologised rationale behind pop innovation is that youth culture drives & determines ' a newness'. It was that way in the late 50's & through the 60's. It seemed to work at the time too, but I dont think its been that way since.

Something my lady friend said made me realise that pop music is like high st. fashion.

She told me what next years dress fashions were to be. 'How do you know?' I asked. It turns out that is what is appearing on the shelves & discussed in magazines. In other words, this is not a prophesy or projection, but what the manufacturers have decided its going to be. So 'innovation' (or lack of it) is the domain of the vendors themselves.

Fashion is dictated. Its not driven by any sort of culture, except what some corporate draughtsman may or may not perceive.

Public choice is a case in point. These pop idol type show-things give the public a chance to vote for what exactly?

[Steve]

That's a very good analogy Rude! I think you've hit the nail on the head there! But I do think the times they are a changing! There are fewer people actually buying music! This is often blamed on file sharing and illegal downloads. I think it's more a question of taste! Do the public actually want to pay for something that may get a few plays and then forgotten? I found this interesting little article

http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2004/0...ilesharing.html

I still believe that file sharing is more a case of try before you buy! I for one am very carefull about what I buy! Mainly because of financial restraints! I don't want to fork out 15 quid for a load of pap!

[merciful evans]

music is perceived differently now.

kids are not interested in the artist as much (unless its a new heart throb thing)

newspapers keep giving away cds with pop hits on them. who is encouraged to buy?

disposable music is getting diposed much quicker now

Edited October 25, 2005 by merciful evans

[Alistair]

music is perceived differently now.

kids are not interested in the artist as much (unless its a new heart throb thing)

newspapers keep giving away cds with pop hits on them. who is encouraged to buy?

disposable music is getting diposed much quicker now

In response to the original question, it's probably my fault.

[BongStuff]

Most of the time the public dont have a choice. For years I have bought cds from the abroad (mostly US) because those artists are unknown & unrepresented in the UK.

If all you have on offer is crap, an informed choice (and taste) is of little use.

The mythologised rationale behind pop innovation is that youth culture drives & determines ' a newness'. It was that way in the late 50's & through the 60's. It seemed to work at the time too, but I dont think its been that way since.

Something my lady friend said made me realise that pop music is like high st. fashion.

She told me what next years dress fashions were to be. 'How do you know?' I asked. It turns out that is what is appearing on the shelves & discussed in magazines. In other words, this is not a prophesy or projection, but what the manufacturers have decided its going to be. So 'innovation' (or lack of it) is the domain of the vendors themselves.

Fashion is dictated. Its not driven by any sort of culture, except what some corporate draughtsman may or may not perceive.

Public choice is a case in point. These pop idol type show-things give the public a chance to vote for what exactly?

Definitely.

But I still think we have more choice in music than in "fashion" - diverse music is in all

the big High Street music shops. Sure if you wanna get *really* obscure - and I count

myself in on this one - you'll need to find a e.g. specialist or mail order source.

But your average HMV / Virgin / Tower will stock a decently huge range in terms of era and style - much more than

your average GAP / Next / FCUK.

As for Pop Idol....!!! Nothing boils my blood more than that karaoke stupidity! AAAARGH!!!!!

( I need a beer )

BS

ps. oh here's one!

[BongStuff]

music is perceived differently now.

kids are not interested in the artist as much (unless its a new heart throb thing)

newspapers keep giving away cds with pop hits on them. who is encouraged to buy?

disposable music is getting diposed much quicker now

Yeah that's true.

I wonder if in general our collective span of attention is diminishing?!

BS

[BongStuff]

That's a very good analogy Rude! I think you've hit the nail on the head there! But I do think the times they are a changing! There are fewer people actually buying music! This is often blamed on file sharing and illegal downloads. I think it's more a question of taste! Do the public actually want to pay for something that may get a few plays and then forgotten? I found this interesting little article

http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2004/0...ilesharing.html

I still believe that file sharing is more a case of try before you buy! I for one am very carefull about what I buy! Mainly because of financial restraints! I don't want to fork out 15 quid for a load of pap!

Nice link.

But weren't UK music sales up in 2004 despite all the hysteria

over illegal downloads?

We were all taping albums 10-20 years ago too!! It's not a new phenomenon in that sense.

Steve - if you want a good combo -

first try AllMusic

then buy Play - most CDs 9quid delivered

BS

[Prometheus]

Yeah that's true.

I wonder if in general our collective span of attention is diminishing?!

BS

I'd be more inclined to believe that music is getting disposed of quicker so the writers of said music can be paid less and don't develope any kind of influence over the recording companies...

[john]

I'd be more inclined to believe that music is getting disposed of quicker so the writers of said music can be paid less and don't develope any kind of influence over the recording companies...

Nah. I think the record companies are simply spread-betting. To really push something, and support artists long term means investment. They do this only for the very limited "A" list. The rest fight over the scraps. Lacking promo, there is a high turn over of both artists and songs.

The fact that the press, and promo companies turn artists into commodities on the celebrity version NASDAQ, and the overall meaning of celebrity has been diminished, there is naturally also an increased turn over of stars. This of course achieves exactly your suggestion for celebrities. It reduces their power over the companies. Combine this with the air of reduced investment and being a star becomes a very fragile state.

Where upon they live their life in the tabloids, hawking their ass to the nearest journo, just for a mention. Self promo to increase your value as a commodity. Not pretty.

I think I must be a bit jaded...

[Steve]

Yeh, we're a cynical bunch of old farts eh?

[Donna]

john, thou sayest it.

Cynical for a reason, Steve as you well know! What madness is it shoving a contract in front of a saloon singer, 17 pages, with merchandizing shares writ into it? I thank God I seen what others've been through, one carrot after another in too many cases - and that for folks willing to do just about anything to make it.

Who wants to be an indentured servant? No way. I hope the times do change...enough. We shall see.

Ever view "The Agony and the Ecstacy?" It's about Pope Julius "commisioning" Michaelangelo to paint the Sistene chapel ('scuse me, I have no spelling gene right now). There's a part in there where painter Raphael rebukes M.Angelo for not apologizing to the Pope (when Julius broke a stick in anger on M.angelo's back). It went something like, But there is no art without a patron. We must fawn, kiss hand...to do the things we must do, or die.

It's a very good flick.

Edited October 30, 2005 by Donna

[Prometheus]

john, thou sayest it.

Cynical for a reason, Steve as you well know! What madness is it shoving a contract in front of a saloon singer, 17 pages, with merchandizing shares writ into it? I thank God I seen what others've been through, one carrot after another in too many cases - and that for folks willing to do just about anything to make it.

Who wants to be an indentured servant? No way. I hope the times do change...enough. We shall see.

Ever view "The Agony and the Ecstacy?" It's about Pope Julius "commisioning" Michaelangelo to paint the Sistene chapel ('scuse me, I have no spelling gene right now). There's a part in there where painter Raphael rebukes M.Angelo for not apologizing to the Pope (when Julius broke a stick in anger on M.angelo's back). It went something like, But there is no art without a patron. We must fawn, kiss hand...to do the things we must do, or die.

It's a very good flick.

Apparently Michaelangelo was never a gracious man... And I'm with you Donna, I'd rather be a haughty pauper than a servile aristocrat... Although that's probably why I never have any money...

[Donna]

Well, at least you've got gear.

That reminds me of a funny story, Prometheus. I once turned down "something" that "might" have materialized...money figures had been mentioned. When I bowed out, a close relative was furious with me and proceeded to shout and stomp for a long time about artistic pigheadedness. It was frightening at the time, actually.

So at least no one's YELLING at me anymore for this!

[Prometheus]

Well, at least you've got gear.

That reminds me of a funny story, Prometheus. I once turned down "something" that "might" have materialized...money figures had been mentioned. When I bowed out, a close relative was furious with me and proceeded to shout and stomp for a long time about artistic pigheadedness. It was frightening at the time, actually.

So at least no one's YELLING at me anymore for this!

It took me a long time to get all this gear together, and I spent a lot of money that I didn't have... If I was to buy the same gear now, it would cost me a quarter of the price...

The thing is, sometimes you're right to turn things down, even if there is money going to come your way. I had an opportunity to go for a job in a big studio a couple of years ago, where I would have made quite a bit of dough, but the engineers in these places get treated like shit and work 90 hour weeks... I'd rather be poor and work when I feel like it, and more importantly retain the choice of telling people, "here's the tapes you've recorded so far, take them and get the hell out of my face!" when I have clients who are unprofessional, aggressive or abusive...

[Donna]

Agreed!~

Prometheus, do you have links to mixes you've done? Now that Winamp- anathema-sit is no longer an issue, we're able to hear stuff!

I'd like to listen to some of your mixing.

[Prometheus]

Agreed!~

Prometheus, do you have links to mixes you've done? Now that Winamp- anathema-sit is no longer an issue, we're able to hear stuff!

I'd like to listen to some of your mixing.

Do you have a Gmail account, or even a hotmail one might do? I'd be happy to send you some stuff...

There's a couple of songs I wrote on my website, but they're kinda ruined by an electronic drum machine with Wembley Stadium sounds on it (I can't play drums to save my life), but I'd rather you heard stuff I'd done that's a bit more polished...

[john]

Hey

You should be able to send a Private Message to Donna. Just click on here name to see ger profile, and select "Send a Personal Message".

I'd like to hear some tracks too Prometheus. What's you web address?