Do you have a CLEAR vision of what you want to be as a songwriter (or artist)?

[Richard Tracey]

5 hours ago, JonJon67 said:

people have been bodybuilding for thousands of years lol. Steroids didnt come around till late 40s or so

 

I give up

 

 

 

And how many of them looked like the size of the Hulk!!!

 

The point I was making was to enhance yourself beyond what you are capable of, takes some form of enhancement that isn’t natural.

 

I am now bowing out of this conversation as I don’t think anything any of us say is going to make a difference.

[Dazzyt66]

Sometimes the debates here move in a way that really do make me actually laugh out loud.

 

What was the original question?

 

Oh, yeah, no, I'm not clear at all... 😂

 

That answered it. I think... 😉

 

And hopefully, without causing further debate, I believe, as others have said, you can define your 'sound' as a songwriter as what suits your voice. You just need to 'find' what that is. And it is true that you need something to start with. Look at any current reality 'singing' show. Some people there shouldn't have got through basic filtering - oh hang on, I forgot about ratings.

 

@JonJon67 I listened to a couple of your tracks, you have a great voice, if you wanna improve it further then fair play, but not all of us may wanna take that route.

 

Oh shit I've gone off thread... 😫

[JonJon67]

8 hours ago, Richard Tracey said:

 

And how many of them looked like the size of the Hulk!!!

 

The point I was making was to enhance yourself beyond what you are capable of, takes some form of enhancement that isn’t natural.

 

I am now bowing out of this conversation as I don’t think anything any of us say is going to make a difference.

 

"to enhance yourself beyond what you are capable of"........the type of nonsensical statement one ends up using when trying to defend an untenable position.

 

No offense but you guys simply do not understand how singing works.

[JonJon67]

6 hours ago, Dazzyt66 said:

@JonJon67but not all of us may wanna take that route.

 

 

 

not wanting to do the work to improve a voice is one thing. Saying it is impossible is quite another.

 

Side note, ive lost 40 lbs since April. I guess that was impossible too. Maybe I only THINK ive lost 40lbs?! Oh wait, I must have had "weight loss genetics" lol. No, my choices had me being fat for 30+ years. Then i DECIDED to do something about it. That was 40lbs ago. from 258 to 217 this morning. I also DECIDE to get down to about 185 (Lord willing). Its not genetics, its not destiny, its an adult making a choice and acting on it.

[MonoStone]

On 13 October 2017 at 11:21 PM, JonJon67 said:

just the same as anyone on a bodybuilding website would be 100% sure that anyone can improve their body

 

I don't want this to seem like an argument, so I hope this is taken in good spirits, just a friendly debate ... otherwise I'll drop it but...

 

I agree that anyone can IMPROVE their body, but I don't believe that every man can become Mr Universe either. Although drugs can be used in bodybuilding whereas they can't in singing, so it's probably easier to become Arnie than Dio.... but without drugs many men just won't achieve Mr Universe standard no matter how hard they train (I have had this discussion at length with a bodybuilder friend). Yeah they'll gain muscle and be muscular, to some extent, and likewise with training many will become good singers, but that's not the same as being Mr Universe or someone who can sing like literally any of the 'greats' they choose (and that's what we've been talking about.... not merely 'improving') 

 

And singers have to face more natural handicaps potentially. For example the way your mouth, nose and other body parts are formed dictates the way you sound, as do your vocal chords, and some people are literally tone deaf besides. 

 

It's a silly debate really, but I am 100% sure that not EVERY person can become a singer SO GOOD that they can sing just like and as good as every great from Marvin Gaye to Ronnie Dio. And a shed load are wasting a shed load of money on coaching because they've believed that they can. 

[The S]

On 2017-10-12 at 3:40 PM, JonJon67 said:

So then I started singing in 2016.

1 hour ago, JonJon67 said:

No offense but you guys simply do not understand how singing works.

 

I don't? We don't???

Isn't it more possible it is you who do not understand how singing works because as you yourself have stated, you're a beginner at this?!?

 

Please come back in about 30 years of constant singing and practicing and let me know if you made any significant progress, picked out some reasonable knowledge and how it all turned out for you on your singing traverse. I'd love to know! 

 

For now,

 

No offence but you do seem to be a bit full of yourself.

 

Good luck to you sir! Rock on! Beat 'em all and sky's the limit right?!?!! 

 

Cheers,

 

Peter

[JonJon67]

its wild. I feel like ive fallen into some remote corner of the internet where the most extreme arguments are made

 

ANYONE can go into a gym and improve their body and improve their physical strength and skills. Why do you guys have to mention steroids and Mr Universe????? I simply cant follow the logic.

 

Then you start mentioning tone deaf people.    WTF????

 

EVERYBODY IN THIS CONVERSATION ALREADY SINGS!!!!!!!!!  NONE OF YOU ARE TONE DEAF!!!

 

to carry the gym comparison onwards. A short person can get stronger and more fit. A tall person can also. A redheaded person can get fit.....so can a blonde. A right handed person can get fit....so can a left handed person.

 

Same goes for singing. A person with a naturally warm voice can learn to sing brighter. A person with a lighter voice can learn to sound warmer. ANYONE can stretch their range!!!!!! ANYONE...END of story. Been done by thousands of people!

 

Like I say. I am going to document this website because I feel i have stumbled onto an isolated area untouched by 25 years of singing info being spread around the internet.

 

David Coverdale, Freddy Mercury, Chris Cornell...they are BARITONES!!  hello?!?   They simply learned how to go into headvoice and strengthen it to get a decent rock tone. No rocket science or magic involved

 

Just as I come here, a songwriting website (afaik), to try to learn about songwriting...I challenge some of you guys to go to some SINGING forums and ask some general questions.

 

Peace, JJ

[JonJon67]

7 minutes ago, The S said:

 

I don't? We don't???

Isn't it more possible it is you who do not understand how singing works because as you yourself have stated, you're a beginner at this?!?

 

Please come back in about 30 years of constant singing and practicing and let me know if you made any significant progress, picked out some reasonable knowledge and how it all turned out for you on your singing traverse. I'd love to know! 

 

For now,

 

No offence but you do seem to be a bit full of yourself.

 

Good luck to you sir! Rock on! Beat 'em all and sky's the limit right?!?!! 

 

Cheers,

 

Peter

 

 

yeah, ive found out in less than 2 years of singing that there isnt much mystery in it. Its only understanding and consistent training. Pretty sure you also read that I sang, along with the radio etc, like everyone else, until I was 48, at that point in 2016 I started STUDYING training. Slight difference. I dont think I could be classified as any type of beginner

 

So no offense back towards you but between you and I only ONE of us confesses that they cant get certain sounds etc. You wanna talk about 30 years experience and you cant mimic someone by now. Wow.

 

And lets get real with it brother, since you thru out the "full of yourself thing" and tell me to get back in 30 years. If I am a beginner and you are the pro....who can sing better right now today. You or I?

 

tell that.

[JonJon67]

17 minutes ago, The S said:

 

No offence but you do seem to be a bit full of yourself.

 

 

 

its only by comparison to you guys who want to tell me how impossible it is to do things ive already done lol. You have flabbergasted me into bold statements lol

 

I didnt mean to come along and challenge you guys into believing in self improvement. Its just a lifestyle with me. Ive done like 10 different competitive activities in my life, After a while you stop thinking of things as being that hard. They arent hard if thousands of people do them.

 

When I started studying singing, I also had about 28 years of guitar behind me, starting with study of music theory from week one. So its not like singing was going to be difficult at all now was it? Was it going to be THAT hard?

 

I just got my first keyboard last week. A Novation SL Mk2 49 key. Nice midlevel midi controller kboard. What do you think?? Do you really think it will stump me? if its full of myself for me to think I can learn keyboards on top of guitar/singing/bass/writing/self producing.....then yes, im full of myself

 

But like I said, I didnt mean to upset you guys' apple cart. I'll just mosey on along to other sites and you guys go riggghhhtttt back to what you were doing before I tried to get you to believe in crazy notions

 

Peace, JJ

 

 

[The S]

11 minutes ago, JonJon67 said:

 

And lets get real with it brother, since you thru out the "full of yourself thing" and tell me to get back in 30 years. If I am a beginner and you are the pro....who can sing better right now today. You or I?

 

tell that.

 

Are you really 48??? 

[JonJon67]

Just now, The S said:

 

Are you really 48??? 

 

its tit for tat brother. You want to call me a beginner after I complimented your singing, cest la vie. Bible says answer a fool according to his folly.

 

BTW, I wish i was 48. turned 50 in June

[JonJon67]

On 10/13/2017 at 10:35 AM, Just1L said:

My vision is crystal clear, it's my actual abilities that are foggy.

 

I feel you there. Thats the bad thing about learning new stuff. the more you learn, the more you realize what you DONT know. Every new fact opens up about 10 new questions

[MonoStone]

2 hours ago, JonJon67 said:

its wild. I feel like ive fallen into some remote corner of the internet where the most extreme arguments are made

 

ANYONE can go into a gym and improve their body and improve their physical strength and skills. Why do you guys have to mention steroids and Mr Universe????? I simply cant follow the logic.

 

Then you start mentioning tone deaf people.    WTF????

 

EVERYBODY IN THIS CONVERSATION ALREADY SINGS!!!!!!!!!  NONE OF YOU ARE TONE DEAF!!!

 

to carry the gym comparison onwards. A short person can get stronger and more fit. A tall person can also. A redheaded person can get fit.....so can a blonde. A right handed person can get fit....so can a left handed person.

 

Same goes for singing. A person with a naturally warm voice can learn to sing brighter. A person with a lighter voice can learn to sound warmer. ANYONE can stretch their range!!!!!! ANYONE...END of story. Been done by thousands of people!

 

Like I say. I am going to document this website because I feel i have stumbled onto an isolated area untouched by 25 years of singing info being spread around the internet.

 

David Coverdale, Freddy Mercury, Chris Cornell...they are BARITONES!!  hello?!?   They simply learned how to go into headvoice and strengthen it to get a decent rock tone. No rocket science or magic involved

 

Just as I come here, a songwriting website (afaik), to try to learn about songwriting...I challenge some of you guys to go to some SINGING forums and ask some general questions.

 

Peace, JJ

 

I don't think we're debating the same thing here. What I'm saying, and what I thought was the debate, is that YES many/most people can IMPROVE physically from a gym and many/most people can improve from singing lessons/practice BUT not EVERY PERSON can achieve EXCEPTIONAL results. I'm not talking about merely improving, I'm talking about becoming amazing!!! Because to achieve the physique of Mr Universe without drugs requires a certain degree of natural predisposition to that and to achieve the ability to sing like ANY and ALL of the great singers you could choose requires some natural predisposition to that. 

 

Honestly, your argument suggests that ANYONE can become a world class football (soccer) player, or an olympic class runner, or have the brain of Stephen Hawking. It's sadly not the case. There are too many physical and mental attributes to list which need to be taken into account.

 

I have to be really clear here...again... I'm not suggesting that anyone can't improve, I'm saying that not EVERYONE can become absolutely amazing at anything they choose to do, including singing.

 

Sheesh.... haven't you ever seen the poor sods they show on America's got talent for you to laugh at? If you honestly believe you could train them all to sound like David Coverdale you're as nutty as they are! Soz!  

[Dazzyt66]

3 hours ago, MonoStone said:

Sheesh.... haven't you ever seen the poor sods they show on America's got talent for you to laugh at? If you honestly believe you could train them all to sound like David Coverdale you're as nutty as they are! Soz

I think this debate may go on a while yet. It's funny how at least 3 of us have used this example... 

 

Right, I'm off to the gym to get ripped and then I'm gonna enrol at Oxford... 😂

[Richard Tracey]

As most of the members have pointed out on here, I think JonJon is reading into our comments what he wants to read.

 

As far as I read, the debate, as Dek mentions, is about whether ANYONE can do ANYTHING if they put their mind to it and with practice. 

 

I know people who have tried to do lots of things that they wanted to do, but they can only go as far as the limits of their body. Everyone has a limit on something, be that singing, art, bodybuilding. Yes you can have a go at these things, but you may never achieve a decent level in any.

 

Now if you have a natural disposition towards something, then you COULD get better if you practice, but your body will only let you go so far. I know guys that are in the gym every day on the weights. They are toned with muscle, but they don’t look huge, like really big. I have spoken to them about this and they know that all the guys who get huge are on some kind of enhancing drug. It is the truth and why there was a big investigation into what they do to the persons taking them.

 

Look at all the sport persons who are at the top of their game. Physical specimens of what you can be if you practice and look how many have been found to be taking enhancement drugs to get that bit extra out of their body. Their body doesn’t allow them to get any further naturally, so they turn to something unnatural to achieve that.

 

If you read all our posts correctly, you would have seen that no-one disagrees with a lot of what you say, just mainly a couple of parts and the fact that so many are touching on the same parts, would suggest we have all been there and know the limits of what we can achieve, as we have been doing this a while - in some cases a very long time.

 

You use analogies that don’t really fit your argument- like you have bought a keyboard, does that mean you can’t play it - that is just a silly thing to say. You are clearly musically inclined, it is in your makeup. A lot of people are not. Some are born with a gift, some have to learn it. Some learn to an exceptional level and some learn to a level that suits them and they know they will not be able to get any better than that. Yes you can learn the keyboard without having to know music theory etc. There will be limits to what you can achieve (I am in this bracket) and you could learn and practice to get better (I could and probably will do this at some point). I don’t think I will ever be Chopin or anything like Rik Wakeman, but I can get to a higher level than I am at the moment. I know my limitations, my body and mind tell me about them everyday.

 

Some people are predisposed to doing certain things that others will never achieve, that is just nature and how we are made.

[JonJon67]

Im gonna let it go guys, the back and forth is silly.

 

Basically what set me off is this statement and it went downhill from that point. Point of fact is these statements are incorrect. Obviously you guys will all huddle together and defend these type of statements to the death. meanwhile I know these statements are false so how can I agree with them?

 

On 10/12/2017 at 11:11 AM, The S said:

The hard truth is, we as singers, for better or worse, have got the voice that were given to us and have to adjust accordingly. I'd love to be able to sing effortlessly and technically like a lot of great singers, but I just can't.

 

I see most of you guys listed influences being sort of laid back singer/songwriter guys. I dont see too many hard rock or metal influences. If you stepped over into hard rock or metal then you would have a totally different mindset on vocal development. You would find ways to develop those abilities because you'd need them and you'd be around others who have developed them. its all a question of environment and mindset.

 

Nowhere did I EVER say that anyone can be Mr Universe or that ANYONE can sing like Coverdale. If I said that, post it up for me to see the quote.  Its not me who cant follow the logic my own thread lol. I don't need to be called "nutty" for something I never said

 

What I said was that ANYONE can radically improve their voice....unless they have serious physical or mental issues. I stand behind that statement regardless of anyone else's huffing and puffing. Anyone can also modify their voice and mimic others. Little kids do it all day long without thought. You guys ever hear of the IPA vowel chart??? You can experiment with different placements on the IPA vowel chart and find a wide array of different sounds from your own voice. But I know you guys know all that since you all are so experienced.

 

When I say you guys don't understand singing I mean that I don't think most or any of you have really STUDIED singing technique. Have you guys ever went into serious and consistent singing TRAINING?? Scales, sirens, vowel modifications, distortion techniques, training the individual parts of the voice. Breathing exercises to strengthen the whole mechanism. Mental understanding of what physical parts do what. I dont think so for the most part. Feel free to correct me if Im wrong but I dont think I am. If you were students of singing then you simply wouldnt have the same attitudes.

 

You can casually sing as you strum along with guitar for 50 years...that doesnt make you a student of the game. I gave guitar lessons to a guy who had played guitar for 25 years or so and he was about where I was after 3-4 years. Cest la vie. An informed "beginner" can pass a LOT of 30 year "veterans" in many fields.

 

BTW I have been in and out of gyms since I was 15, Ive competed in powerlifting. In official competitions with 3 judges watching (lol) benched 315, squatted 425, deadlifted 430 IIRC. Higher numbers in the gym. Those arent crazy numbers but far more than the average guy on the street can do and far more than I ever thought I could do at certain points. I had never tried to focus on strength until I hit late 30s. Went from 225 bench to 315 in about a year. I never took steroids nor had any real desire to. Ive seen thousands of people in gyms and seen unrealistic dreamers alongside hardcore dedicated guys. Ive seen guys plod along at one level and then all of a sudden blow up in 6 weeks from steroids. Im pretty sure I have a solid grasp on realistic expectation in singing AND gym activities. But thanks for all the tongue lashing anyway. Obviously you guys know more than me on all these subjects. Im sure most of you have as many hard gym years in as I do. Im sure all of you have benched 315.

 

Anyway, I dont really see the need for me to post anymore. Its obvious we are pretty much on different pages.

 

Im out guys

 

Best of luck, Jon

[Kerry Parr]

It seems like a lot if disagreement over saying the same thing here:

"Of course X is true but so is Y"

vs

"Of course Y is true but so is X"

So, we can all benefit from knowing ourselves and accepting our limitations while still striving to improve and break out of our comfort zones. Cool?