Do you have a CLEAR vision of what you want to be as a songwriter (or artist)?

[JonJon67]

Do you have a really CLEAR idea or picture of what type of songwriter or artist you want to be?

 

This has been somewhat of a hang up for me. Its like, I dont even know EXACTLY what I want to be. I have been playing guitar forever (almost 30 years). I know who my heroes are more or less. Eddie VanHalen, Jimi Hendrix, Jimmy Page, Yngwie Malmsteen etc. Hard rock guys obviously

 

So then I started singing in 2016. Yeah of course I was like 48 years old already so I had sung along with the radio or whatever but I started actually studying and training to sing in 2016. So now its a big question of what do I want to sound like....and can I even achieve it?? Of course its hard to hit a target when you dont EXACTLY know what the target is.

 

My fave singers would be guys like David Coverdale, David Lee Roth, Ray Gillen of the late 80s band Badlands (RIP), Jorn lande, Ronnie James Dio, Rob Halford, Chris Cornell etc. Again hard rock guys. Not exactly easy to sing for sure

 

 

So the few songs I have more or less "finished". Im not THAT happy with. I mean im proud of them in that I did all the work. its all a one man show that 99% of the population cant do but its not quite like im ready to go knock down the door of a record company or even start my own youtube channel etc.

 

 

part of the problem, as I explained, is that I dont exactly know what I am going for. I know the general ballpark but of course nothing is easy and so far i havent quite gotten there yet.

 

 

Anyone else sort of fuzzy on what final overall sound to aim for???  or do you have a clear exact vision??

 

Thanks JonJon67

[Richard Tracey]

I know the kind of sound I want to go for, but do vary it slightly as I like a wide variance in music and although I have never been taught or learned any instrument, I make do with what I have learned on the keyboard.

 

As for singing, I have been singing along to songs for years and can probably mimic most of them really well, but I try to sound original on my own music. This is difficult at times as we are drawn to sound like those artists we love to listen to.

 

I normally let the music dictate how I sing a song. The melody and type of song can make you sing one way and another song will make you sing differently.

 

I try to vary how I sound as much as I can, but given I am in control of the song, it won’t always work out that way.

 

Good luck with your music and you will need to post some stuff, you may even find someone who can provide vocals or help you out with how they should sound.

 

Listen to the members songs and see if that helps drive how you want your songs to sound.

[JonJon67]

1 minute ago, Richard Tracey said:

I know the kind of sound I want to go for, but do vary it slightly as I like a wide variance in music and although I have never been taught or learned any instrument, I make do with what I have learned on the keyboard.

 

As for singing, I have been singing along to songs for years and can probably mimic most of them really well, but I try to sound original on my own music. This is difficult at times as we are drawn to sound like those artists we love to listen to.

 

I normally let the music dictate how I sing a song. The melody and type of song can make you sing one way and another song will make you sing differently.

 

I try to vary how I sound as much as I can, but given I am in control of the song, it won’t always work out that way.

 

Good luck with your music and you will need to post some stuff, you may even find someone who can provide vocals or help you out with how they should sound.

 

Listen to the members songs and see if that helps drive how you want your songs to sound.

 

Im sort of the opposite. Im going to sound original no matter what (evidently). Though im in the rock ballpark i dont really sound like the bands I like, unless maybe if I went all out to do a strict copy. I guess as u get older you have soooo many sounds that youve heard that it all just comes out however it wants to

 

Not really "looking for help" per se. More just sharing the journey while picking up tips etc.

 

A few of my originals. Im proud of them but none are really where I want to be as far as a final destination. part of it is just the skill of the whole process. Since I havent been singing long I havent really tried to get too raspy or distorted yet as I am trying to get my voice strong first. I dont wanna get perma-rasp lol

 

Also of course the skill of production. Its going to be hard for a DIY guy to get a big pro sound....but thats the challenge

 

These are from 2016

 

Early 2016. When I had just sang for a few months. Singing is a bit weak. Song for a girls birthday. Doubt she ever heard it cuz she blocked me on FB before I wrote it lol

 

"Happy Birthday Sugarboo"

https://clyp.it/2chj11qz

 

 

'Another Fool'     Somewhat southerny rock

https://clyp.it/ccf4wf40

 

 

"The Garden"        Somewhat loose demo. Getting a bit closer to hard rock or grunge feel. Still a ways to go. Song also written more or less about the "sugarboo" girl lol

https://clyp.it/qrfbaigr

 

"On the Inside"    This was a little later in 2016 when I was thinking I could sing decent so I went nuts with vocal overdubs lol. Fun anyway.

https://clyp.it/uw3zyeps

 

'Sing my Song'   Song I wrote for a forum project. Just demo guitars etc

https://clyp.it/03sq5usl

 

 

Those are roughly in chronological order in 2016. Pretty much been sort of in a funk in 2017. Though I have been training consistently and my singing and guitar playing and producing should be better than ever, I just havent hit any stride in songwriting. I understand it gets harder to have anything to say as u get older lol

 

 

Anyway, there is plenty of creativity in these songs etc.....but I have a ways to go before I sound anything like VanHalen or Led Zeppelin or Soundgarden

 

JonJon67

[The S]

JonJon67!

 

Seems to me you already know how you want to sound. Then of course, you have to have the ability to get there by your own means. I've known singers that've told me they want to sing rockier stuff but they just don't have the ability nor voice to pull it off. Not saying that you don't have that ability, I'm just saying we as singers and songwriters have to be truthful to ourselves regarding our own ability to create sounds. If you want to sound like ACDC, you must be able to scream really high and keep the pitch. If you want to sound like a soul artist, you must be able to sing soul. Etc etc you get what I mean. The hard truth is, we as singers, for better or worse, have got the voice that were given to us and have to adjust accordingly. I'd love to be able to sing effortlessly and technically like a lot of great singers, but I just can't. So I don't write a song that needs vocals like Marvin Gaye, because...well I'm not Marvin Gaye. So I adjust my songs to fit my vocals, I have to. 

 

So what I'm saying is, if you got the rock voice or any other kind of voice for that matter, there's only one way to go, hit that record button and find out your sound. Once your off on your recording journey, you can trim the sound any which way you want along the path.

 

Don't think about how you want to sound, start recording and show the world how you sound. It's the only way.

 

Regarding myself, my answer is yes, I know how I want to sound, and truthfully, some songs I write I scrap because I feel they're not sounding right or I can't make the song justice. It's just the hard truth. It is what it is.

 

Hope it helps!

 

Cheers,

 

Peter

[Snowman]

I go wherever the fingers take me. But, I think that's due to my lack of musical know how.

 

Of course my favorite guitar players are extremely varied Jimmy Page, Mick Ronson, Mick Jones (Clash), Johnny Thunders and Roy Buchanan. I bought a Telecaster because I saw Roy play one with such ease. Yeah, not so easy for me.

[JonJon67]

5 minutes ago, The S said:

JonJon67!

 

Seems to me you already know how you want to sound. Then of course, you have to have the ability to get there by your own means. I've known singers that've told me they want to sing rockier stuff but they just don't have the ability nor voice to pull it off. Not saying that you don't have that ability, I'm just saying we as singers and songwriters have to be truthful to ourselves regarding our own ability to create sounds. If you want to sound like ACDC, you must be able to scream really high and keep the pitch. If you want to sound like a soul artist, you must be able to sing soul. Etc etc you get what I mean. The hard truth is, we as singers, for better or worse, have got the voice that were given to us and have to adjust accordingly. I'd love to be able to sing effortlessly and technically like a lot of great singers, but I just can't. So I don't write a song that needs vocals like Marvin Gaye, because...well I'm not Marvin Gaye. So I adjust my songs to fit my vocals, I have to. 

 

So what I'm saying is, if you got the rock voice or any other kind of voice for that matter, there's only one way to go, hit that record button and find out your sound. Once your off on your recording journey, you can trim the sound any which way you want along the path.

 

Don't think about how you want to sound, start recording and show the world how you sound. It's the only way.

 

Regarding myself, my answer is yes, I know how I want to sound, and truthfully, some songs I write I scrap because I feel they're not sounding right or I can't make the song justice. It's just the hard truth. It is what it is.

 

Hope it helps!

 

Cheers,

 

Peter

 

 

I agree and disagree. Im 5'8"...ill never be an NBA player. yes I see that aspect. That being said, anyone can improve this or that musical quality to great degrees. As far as singing, im still in the early part of the learning curve so I am not about to put too many limitations on what im aiming for.

 

But as I said, sometimes its hard to see a clear goal even if I forget guitar and production. Even JUST considering singing, there are many different vibes one can develop. I look at stuff I want to do...it can get pretty varied.

 

Power Pop a'la Cheap Trick

Harder rock like VanHalen, Led Zeppelin

A more Metal vibe

Soulful stuff

 

Then as far as songwriting, even if u limit it to just rock in general you can have from stripped down aggressive stuff all the way up to a layered Queen type of thing.

 

Sometimes there are so many choices that its hard to even get started lol

[JonJon67]

id like to be more in these types of vibes.

 

 

 

 

 

1) the voice has to get heavier/raspier/compressed. I may be close to it at this point...just gotta get it together and lay it down

 

2) Gotta get that guitar sound way heavier/tighter

 

3) bigger, better overall production

 

4) more aggressive and driving rhythms overall. Im a bit more a laid back, behind the beat type.

 

 

I guess one logical option would be to decide on how you want to sound FOR THAT ONE PROJECT. ONE song or even an EP. Then block out all the other sounds

 

 

[JonJon67]

15 minutes ago, tunesmithth said:

For instance...that heavy, raspy, "whiskey" voice you described above. It's beyond my capability and it always will be.

 

 

who says? where is that written?

 

Can you juggle 4 balls? I cant either but if I wanted to id be able to in a year or two lol

[JonJon67]

23 minutes ago, tunesmithth said:

...then you're a better man than I 

 

As with most things in life, there is no single right answer.

We can dedicate our efforts to...

• becoming something that we're not
• OR, becoming a better version of who we already are.

Personally, I choose the later...but different strokes for different folks.

 

BTW - at some point in the future, we'd appreciate a video of you juggling those 4 balls. 

Have a good one!

 

Tom

 

I guess its a philosophical disagreement then. You ALREADY HAVE become something that you were not. You werent always a musician and maybe even at some point being a musician seemed a faraway impossible thing. A lot of people would look at what you or I do and to them its impossible.....just as we might be tempted to look at Coverdale or whomever and say its impossible

 

I think more things are possible than we give credit for. The main limitation is time. We have 24 hours per day and a certain amount of years. Thats why i wont be juggling anytime soon....but I COULD if I chose and so could you or anybody else.

 

I guess we can look at a block of marble and see a block of marble....but what would DaVinci or MichaelAngelo see?

 

of course we all have our limitations in faith. I cant see me ever being happily married. mainly because I cant see me ever trusting a woman lol. Plus im not rich so I wont pass most females resume test. But I cant control that...I CAN control my musical training and direction etc

[JonJon67]

1 hour ago, tunesmithth said:

In my writing, personal preference takes a back seat to personal strengths.

 

Tom

 

yeah of course I see that point....but I see it as temporary. Like in general the songs I have done so far, they were more or less the best I could do AT THAT TIME.

 

if I thought they were the best id ever be capable of then id immediately quit lol

[Richard Tracey]

2 hours ago, The S said:

JonJon67!

 

Seems to me you already know how you want to sound. Then of course, you have to have the ability to get there by your own means. I've known singers that've told me they want to sing rockier stuff but they just don't have the ability nor voice to pull it off. Not saying that you don't have that ability, I'm just saying we as singers and songwriters have to be truthful to ourselves regarding our own ability to create sounds. If you want to sound like ACDC, you must be able to scream really high and keep the pitch. If you want to sound like a soul artist, you must be able to sing soul. Etc etc you get what I mean. The hard truth is, we as singers, for better or worse, have got the voice that were given to us and have to adjust accordingly. I'd love to be able to sing effortlessly and technically like a lot of great singers, but I just can't. So I don't write a song that needs vocals like Marvin Gaye, because...well I'm not Marvin Gaye. So I adjust my songs to fit my vocals, I have to. 

 

So what I'm saying is, if you got the rock voice or any other kind of voice for that matter, there's only one way to go, hit that record button and find out your sound. Once your off on your recording journey, you can trim the sound any which way you want along the path.

 

Don't think about how you want to sound, start recording and show the world how you sound. It's the only way.

 

Regarding myself, my answer is yes, I know how I want to sound, and truthfully, some songs I write I scrap because I feel they're not sounding right or I can't make the song justice. It's just the hard truth. It is what it is.

 

Hope it helps!

 

Cheers,

 

Peter

 

This is kind of what I was getting at, let the music dictate how you sing the song, rather than thinking about it too much. I have sang my songs many times thinkin I was going to sing it one way and it ended up totally different from how I imagined.

 

If I wanted to sing a song like Gary Numan, I could.... if I wanted to sing a song like David Bowie, I could.... it doesn’t mean that I should, but I have that ability to mimic a lot of artists, probably better than I can sing my own songs, as I have not lived and sang them as much as I have sang along to my favourite songs.

 

Dont worry about finding your voice, your voice will find you.

 

 

[The S]

2 hours ago, JonJon67 said:

I cant see me ever being happily married. mainly because I cant see me ever trusting a woman lol. Plus im not rich so I wont pass most females resume test. But I cant control that...I CAN control my musical training and direction etc

 

Hehe! And here's where you and I go in total opposite directions! No harm in that though.

 

I believe women to be trustworthy. I believe being rich is not on most females as you call it resume tests. While you believe you can't control that, I wholeheartedly disagree. Sorry, but I do!!! 

 

And while I believe you CAN control your musical training and directions, voice is different from lets say an instrument. Sure, you can always strive and work hard to become a better singer, I for one do, but still, you work with what you got from the get go, there's no possible (genetic) way to change that, no matter how much you/we practice. I can always become a better singer, but I will never be able to sing like Marvin Gaye, that's just a fact, no matter how many hours I put in.

 

And my very realistic approach is not to be confused with any sort of surrendering, giving up or diminishing my own voice , it's not about that. Still after 30+ years of singing almost daily, I find myself still loving it and working hard at it. But I truly believe, in knowing my limits, the limit of my voice, that it makes me a better singer. I can then shape and build my songs around my vocals so I come off as a fairly ok singer. If I wrote songs and tried to sing like Glenn Hughes (an old favourite), I'd survive approximately 0.3 seconds before anyone would call my bluff.

 

What I'm trying to say is this, knowing your limits and adjust accordingly is not a liability, it's an asset.

 

Cheers,

 

Peter

[JonJon67]

32 minutes ago, The S said:

 

Hehe! And here's where you and I go in total opposite directions! No harm in that though.

 

I believe women to be trustworthy. I believe being rich is not on most females as you call it resume tests. While you believe you can't control that, I wholeheartedly disagree. Sorry, but I do!!! 

 

And while I believe you CAN control your musical training and directions, voice is different from lets say an instrument. Sure, you can always strive and work hard to become a better singer, I for one do, but still, you work with what you got from the get go, there's no possible (genetic) way to change that, no matter how much you/we practice. I can always become a better singer, but I will never be able to sing like Marvin Gaye, that's just a fact, no matter how many hours I put in.

 

And my very realistic approach is not to be confused with any sort of surrendering, giving up or diminishing my own voice , it's not about that. Still after 30+ years of singing almost daily, I find myself still loving it and working hard at it. But I truly believe, in knowing my limits, the limit of my voice, that it makes me a better singer. I can then shape and build my songs around my vocals so I come off as a fairly ok singer. If I wrote songs and tried to sing like Glenn Hughes (an old favourite), I'd survive approximately 0.3 seconds before anyone would call my bluff.

 

What I'm trying to say is this, knowing your limits and adjust accordingly is not a liability, it's an asset.

 

Cheers,

 

Peter

 

I dunno. Seems you are fighting awfully hard to accept whatever limitations.

 

is Marvin Gaye 8 feet tall with 6 legs? nah, he has about the same genetic makeup and physiology as you.

 

What part of his singing do you find so extraordinary and Godlike? The range? The soul or expression? Phrasing What?

 

AFAIK he isnt doing anything that thousands of others have done

[JonJon67]

44 minutes ago, The S said:

 

Hehe! And here's where you and I go in total opposite directions! No harm in that though.

 

I believe women to be trustworthy. I believe being rich is not on most females as you call it resume tests. While you believe you can't control that, I wholeheartedly disagree. Sorry, but I do!!! 

 

And while I believe you CAN control your musical training and directions, voice is different from lets say an instrument. Sure, you can always strive and work hard to become a better singer, I for one do, but still, you work with what you got from the get go, there's no possible (genetic) way to change that, no matter how much you/we practice. I can always become a better singer, but I will never be able to sing like Marvin Gaye, that's just a fact, no matter how many hours I put in.

 

And my very realistic approach is not to be confused with any sort of surrendering, giving up or diminishing my own voice , it's not about that. Still after 30+ years of singing almost daily, I find myself still loving it and working hard at it. But I truly believe, in knowing my limits, the limit of my voice, that it makes me a better singer. I can then shape and build my songs around my vocals so I come off as a fairly ok singer. If I wrote songs and tried to sing like Glenn Hughes (an old favourite), I'd survive approximately 0.3 seconds before anyone would call my bluff.

 

What I'm trying to say is this, knowing your limits and adjust accordingly is not a liability, it's an asset.

 

Cheers,

 

Peter

 

I just checked 3 of your tracks. I dont think you are giving yourself enough credit lol. You sing pretty good.

 

You have a certain style but that doesnt mean you cant modify it. You have all the same pieces in your throat that Marvin had lol

 

Sounds like you sing with really loose cheeks. Probably very relaxed with not a lot of air pressure or support etc.  Also its very laid back phrasing. Thats like a certain "formula" to give a certain sound. Works for some sounds, wont work for others. To get other sounds you have to find the formula for those sounds and also maybe develop the strength or coordination or whatever.

 

Now im really interesting to know why u feel u cant sing Marvin Gaye because you already have some skills

[Richard Tracey]

JonJon - I have to agree with the others. Singing is something you can either do, or not. Yes, you can get better and become a virtuoso, but you need that initial start to get better. 

 

Some people cannot sing sing no matter how much they practice or have a mentor to make them better. They are tone-deaf or just terrible (I have heard a lot of them over the years, especially on certain reality TV programmes).

 

I do not believe that everyone should believe they can sing, as that is just punishing the ears of others.

 

You believe you can get better, but you more than likely had a decent voice to start with and as you say, you have been singing along to your favourite songs for a long time, so you probably can get better, but you may struggle to sing in every style, or even the one you want to sing in. If your voice is not made for it, it will be nigh on impossible to get there.

 

Look at the different categories of singers and think how many people can fit into all of those categories. There is a reason for that, our vocal chords are made in different ways and while some can master them, a lot of really good singers can only sing in one category, but they do it well.

 

I find now that I’m older, my voice isn’t as good as it was. I am no longer able to sing in the broad spectrum that I could when I was younger and I am certainly not able to sing pitch perfect anymore. Does it bother me, yes it does now that I am recording my own music. Will I be able to get my voice back to what it was, I don’t believe I will, maybe if I took lessons, but realistically I don’t think it is there anymore. A lot of people still think I can sing and sing well, especially when I am singing along to other songs or karaoke, but all I am doing is mimicking the original singer. Only now I find it a bit harder to hit the high notes I used to be able to, especially singing Tainted Love by Soft Cell🤣.

 

You may be one of those singers who can sing in any style, but others will know their limitations and what style suits their voice, especially if they have been doing this for a while.

 

As I said, I write my music to my voice, some songs I sing lower in the scale, others a bit higher, but I now know my limitations and which notes I struggle to hit, so try and steer clear of them, unless I am feeling really masochistic.

[MonoStone]

To try to answer the original question -

 

Yes - I have some vision of the type of songwriter (and singer) I want to be ... Although that isn't a clear type because it's a mish mash of styles particular to me, it's just me but I know roughly what I want me to be.

 

And having read through this thread I agree it's possible to change the type of singers we are, to an extent ... BUT... 

 

... to argue that you could sound like Marvin Gaye just because he wasn't 8 foot tall is just silly. Your height isn't all that matters in how your voice sounds and has nothing to do with your sense of pitch and rhythm etc. And it's true that there will be some people who can ALMOST mimic almost any voice, some people do it for a living, but that doesn't mean that anyone can learn to do that... AND ... unless you're a tribute act, why would you want to??????? 

 

I don't really follow the point of all the OP. If you like hard rock and metal so much, I'd guess that is the type of sound you want to make.... that seemed clear in the post, but confusing because you claimed to be unclear. Why unclear? 

 

 

[JonJon67]

20 minutes ago, MonoStone said:

 

 

I don't really follow the point of all the OP. If you like hard rock and metal so much, I'd guess that is the type of sound you want to make.... that seemed clear in the post, but confusing because you claimed to be unclear. Why unclear? 

 

 

 

because within rock and metal there is a HUGE variety of styles.  For example some guys have sort of a high, thin and scratchy voice sort of like Robert Plant/Janis Joplin but other guys have a big huge clear voice like Ronnie James Dio. There are huge varieties of guitar styles etc

[JonJon67]

32 minutes ago, MonoStone said:

... to argue that you could sound like Marvin Gaye just because he wasn't 8 foot tall is just silly.

 

 

Dude is a decent singer himself and he mentioned Marvin Gaye twice like he was some sort of demigod. I guess I dont see it. I was simply trying to see what is so difficult about mimicking Marvin at least to a degree.

 

No demigods out there, we are all just people.

 

 

[MonoStone]

Just now, JonJon67 said:

 

because within rock and metal there is a HUGE variety of styles.  For example some guys have sort of a high, thin and scratchy voice sort of like Robert Plant/Janis Joplin but other guys have a big huge clear voice like Ronnie James Dio. There are huge varieties of guitar styles etc

 

Hmmm.... I'm sure I once saw an interview with Plant where he said he'd been trying to sing like Ray Charles but couldn't do it and so ended up singing like he does (like Plant does) and I have to wonder why he's never admitted that he'd been trying to sound like Janis Joplin, since he succeeded at that!

 

And to put that in the context of your point...

 

It seems strange to me to have a dilemma over such a thing. Plant couldn't sound like Ray Charles, no matter how hard he tried, and Plant couldn't sound like Dio either.... I don't know the exact physical reasons or even the correct terminology but I know that Plant's vocal chords couldn't sound like Dio's, he's just not made the same way. Likewise I know that I can't have the range that Halford has (or had), I could take some lessons and maybe extend my range a bit but... I just couldn't get that far. A clearer way to look at this is - I couldn't sing like Kate Bush either!!! It's just not going to happen.

 

You can't entirely LEARN to sing like Dio, or Halford, or Dickinson ... or Plant.... You can select a style and get as close as you're able, if you really want to, but that is (in my opinion) the wrong way to go. The reason it's wrong is that, again, you just can't pick an artist and sound like them. You have to work with what you've got. However, IF you are fortunate to have a voice that can sound like and as good as ALL of the singers we've mentioned then ok maybe you'll be like a kid in a sweet shop wondering which to choose.... but if that's the case then.... follow your heart! Do what comes natural...or you'll just end up sounding fake.

 

Aside from vocal styles... if we're only talking about general music styles like - sound like AC/DC vs Metallica then it's even less of a dilemma ... you can sound like one of them today and another tomorrow, or you can sound like some combination of both. And isn't that how music really progresses? Isn't that how the people we admire got their style? They took a bit of one style, and another style, and another...influences...and ended up with something unique to them. THAT is the place to aim for!!!!

 

And that applies to vocals too. Be YOU, your various influences will make YOU, but you should always keep it natural and play to your strengths because if you try to be someone you can't be (e.g Kate Bush) then at best you'll end up as just another 'sounds a bit like but not as good as _____ ' . 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MonoStone]

37 minutes ago, JonJon67 said:

I was simply trying to see what is so difficult about mimicking Marvin at least to a degree.

 

IF you have a very versatile voice, which not everyone has, or if you have a voice that naturally leans that way, along with the other essential abilities (pitch etc) then you probably can sing a bit like Marvin Gaye or that type of singer if you want. 

 

My point was that not everyone has the option, the choice, of whether to have a voice similar to Gaye, or Dio, or Plant, or Bush.... There are physical reasons why. But yeah, some people and maybe you might have such a versatile voice that you could sing in any style and tone and range etc.