Do you have a CLEAR vision of what you want to be as a songwriter (or artist)?

[JonJon67]

4 minutes ago, MonoStone said:

 

Hmmm.... I'm sure I once saw an interview with Plant where he said he'd been trying to sing like Ray Charles but couldn't do it and so ended up singing like he does (like Plant does) and I have to wonder why he's never admitted that he'd been trying to sound like Janis Joplin, since he succeeded at that!

 

And to put that in the context of your point...

 

It seems strange to me to have a dilemma over such a thing. Plant couldn't sound like Ray Charles, no matter how hard he tried, and Plant couldn't sound like Dio either.... I don't know the exact physical reasons or even the correct terminology but I know that Plant's vocal chords couldn't sound like Dio's, he's just not made the same way. Likewise I know that I can't have the range that Halford has (or had), I could take some lessons and maybe extend my range a bit but... I just couldn't get that far. A clearer way to look at this is - I couldn't sing like Kate Bush either!!! It's just not going to happen.

 

You can't entirely LEARN to sing like Dio, or Halford, or Dickinson ... or Plant.... You can select a style and get as close as you're able, if you really want to, but that is (in my opinion) the wrong way to go. The reason it's wrong is that, again, you just can't pick an artist and sound like them. You have to work with what you've got. However, IF you are fortunate to have a voice that can sound like and as good as ALL of the singers we've mentioned then ok maybe you'll be like a kid in a sweet shop wondering which to choose.... but if that's the case then.... follow your heart! Do what comes natural...or you'll just end up sounding fake.

 

Aside from vocal styles... if we're only talking about general music styles like - sound like AC/DC vs Metallica then it's even less of a dilemma ... you can sound like one of them today and another tomorrow, or you can sound like some combination of both. And isn't that how music really progresses? Isn't that how the people we admire got their style? They took a bit of one style, and another style, and another...influences...and ended up with something unique to them. THAT is the place to aim for!!!!

 

And that applies to vocals too. Be YOU, your various influences will make YOU, but you should always keep it natural and play to your strengths because if you try to be someone you can't be (e.g Kate Bush) then at best you'll end up as just another 'sounds a bit like but not as good as _____ ' .

 

Well no one is going to be as good as ALL of those guys lol. Dio is great and Steve Perry is great but they couldnt really mimic each other exactly.

 

to me its all technique. Most anything can be learned. How do guys do impersonations of PeeWee Herman and then turn around and do James Earl Jones?? How did Mel Blanc make all those voices??  Its just various techniques for manipulating the ways the voice works

 

could Plant have imitated Ray Charles? He says he couldnt figure out how. Fair enough, but does that mean he COULDNT? Steve Winwood was a tenor like Plant and they say that Steve could sing just like Ray Charles when he was like 15

 

I mean, I understand the point people are making about having a certain natural sound....but I think people WAY overemphasize it. We are all moreso alike than we are different.

 

ever see Amy Walker? She isnt having surgery between sounds lol...she is manipulating this and that in her vocal mechanisms. Little kids do it all the time.

 

 

Me? can I sing as good as all those guys? of course not lol. But do I think I can get close to a lot of those sounds? Sure. Whats stopping me?

 

Some of the singers are sort of in "families" so to speak:

 

High scratchy falsettoey family (Plant, Joplin, Ray Gillen)

Big "round" note guys. (Paul Rogers, Dio, Coverdale to a degree who is a baritone who does high falsetto high headvoice)

High "clean" opera style (Dio, Dickinson, Geoff Tate)

 

 

I think there is a bit too much mysticism in the way people look at this stuff. Its mostly technique and learning. A lot of the singers themselves didnt really KNOW how they did what they did but there is a million times more info available to us as was to them

[JonJon67]

16 minutes ago, MonoStone said:

 

IF you have a very versatile voice, which not everyone has, or if you have a voice that naturally leans that way, along with the other essential abilities (pitch etc) then you probably can sing a bit like Marvin Gaye or that type of singer if you want. 

 

My point was that not everyone has the option, the choice, of whether to have a voice similar to Gaye, or Dio, or Plant, or Bush.... There are physical reasons why. But yeah, some people and maybe you might have such a versatile voice that you could sing in any style and tone and range etc.

 

Sort of going in circles I guess. A voice is versatile depending on how knowledge a person has about how the voice works and how much time they spend training it. Sort of like a decathlon athlete. Are people born into that or do they just train for it?

 

Im pretty sure you know what a bell curve is, yes? MOST of us are somewhere in the middle of it lol. You guys act like everyone is in some extreme outlier spot where they can only sing one isolated thing

 

I guess the point of the thread is that there are tradeoffs. If someone IS versatile, then they have issues deciding which direction to take. Think about Freddy Mercury or Prince compared to Paul Rogers. If you hand Freddy or Prince a rhythm track, they can do about a million different things with it whereas Paul is basically got that one style he stuck to

 

Freddy and Prince werent demigods or aliens, they just experimented more

 

EVERYBODY has options.

 

Anyway, I think the question has been answered lol. No, people dont have a CLEAR idea. So I dont feel as bad now lol

 

Peace, JJ

[MonoStone]

13 minutes ago, JonJon67 said:

I think there is a bit too much mysticism in the way people look at this stuff. Its mostly technique and learning

 

It's not mysticism... it's biology. I guarantee that no amount of training could make me sing like Bruce Dickinson. Training and technique only improve on what you naturally have. The simplest part of that to focus on might be 'range' - You just can't learn to have a vocal range beyond the extent that your body is capable of. A harder part to think about might be 'tone' - two people could have the exact same range but sound entirely different, and that 'tone'  is maybe the most important and why some people's voices are just more pleasant than others...that applies to both singing and speaking voices. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think it's a lot more about what we're physically capable of than you do. I don't believe that everyone can sound like anything they want.

 

And to be clear - I'm not putting Dickinson up as some kind of god lol... I wouldn't want to sing like him especially. I'm only using him as an example because it's a fairly extreme example that clearly the majority of people can't do.

[JonJon67]

1 minute ago, MonoStone said:

 

It's not mysticism... it's biology. I guarantee that no amount of training could make me sing like Bruce Dickinson. Training and technique only improve on what you naturally have. The simplest part of that to focus on might be 'range' - You just can't learn to have a vocal range beyond the extent that your body is capable of. A harder part to think about might be 'tone' - two people could have the exact same range but sound entirely different, and that 'tone'  is maybe the most important and why some people's voices are just more pleasant than others...that applies to both singing and speaking voices. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think it's a lot more about what we're physically capable of than you do. I don't believe that everyone can sound like anything they want.

 

 

 

okay. I guess well agree to disagree. Unless you are genetically a deep deep baritone then you could get most of Bruce Dickinsons range. There are many with much greater range than Bruce

 

Its not even what the thread was asking but its all good. Beating a dead horse at this point

 

Peace, JJ

[MonoStone]

1 minute ago, JonJon67 said:

 

okay. I guess well agree to disagree. Unless you are genetically a deep deep baritone then you could get most of Bruce Dickinsons range. There are many with much greater range than Bruce

 

Its not even what the thread was asking but its all good. Beating a dead horse at this point

 

Peace, JJ

 

We definitely disagree. But if you can sing like Prince, Tom Waits, Louis Armstrong and Kate Bush.... there's a talent show waiting for you  And I'd love to hear them all so please do post up the tracks!

 

PEACE

[JonJon67]

1 minute ago, MonoStone said:

 

We definitely disagree. But if you can sing like Prince, Tom Waits, Louis Armstrong and Kate Bush.... there's a talent show waiting for you  And I'd love to hear them all so please do post up the tracks!

 

PEACE

 

its all good, I dont mind the sort of passive aggressive implied insult there lol. Never heard Tom Waits AFAIK.

 

Kate Bush is a female which is sort of a straw man because I dont think I was mentioning mimicking female singers

 

Louis Armstrong is a bit extreme and again a bit of a straw man because I was naming mostly rock tenors. I wasnt really naming light voiced RnB guys and deep growly bass guys who sound like they have vocal damage.

 

 

That being said, I can probably do a respectable job on all of them lol. Should I invest the weeks worth of work to impress you? Would there be a point? Talent show? What, we are kids now?? Im 50 years old, what interest do I have in a talent show?

 

Im going to drop it now, its getting regretful at this point

 

Peace OUT, JJ

 

 

[MonoStone]

1 minute ago, JonJon67 said:

its all good, I dont mind the sort of passive aggressive implied insult there lol

 

No insult applied at all. I genuinely believe that to be able to mimic any and every type of voice is something that few people, or certainly not all people can do. And that was my point. I just believe it's too much down to physical, anatomical qualities which can only be enhanced by technique and training. And I don't know you, I've never heard you, and you might well be a person who can speak or sing in any voice you want.... and if you can, then far from implying an insult...I'm implying, or stating, that you must have an unusual talent. And since I've never heard you, I wouldn't say that you can't do all of that, although I've never heard anyone who really can (well) so I'd be surprised and perhaps somewhat in awe (oh and, as I said in my first mention, the Kate Bush thing was merely to help illustrate the point that it's partly a physical thing.... and yes the male/female thing makes it seem less likely, but some male singers do sound more female than others.... check out 'Death Vessel' for example (I know for sure I couldn't sing like him either) ). And genuinely, if you can be so versatile I would love to hear, just as I'd love to hear any talented singer post their work on here.... that's one of the best things about being here.

 

None of my wording is intended to be insulting at all. I am disagreeing with you, but I hoped I was doing that politely. I was only trying to write and make my point clearly. If that sounded insulting for any reason then I failed.... 

 

It does sound like you've taken my words the wrong way, and I'm guessing that would continue... so yes it's best to leave it there...but I had to make this final post to be clear that there was no insult intended and none should be taken.

[JonJon67]

1 minute ago, MonoStone said:

 

No insult applied at all. I genuinely believe that to be able to mimic any and every type of voice is something that few people, or certainly not all people can do. And that was my point. I just believe it's too much down to physical, anatomical qualities which can only be enhanced by technique and training. And I don't know you, I've never heard you, and you might well be a person who can speak or sing in any voice you want.... and if you can, then far from implying an insult...I'm implying, or stating, that you must have an unusual talent. And since I've never heard you, I wouldn't say that you can't do all of that, although I've never heard anyone who really can (well) so I'd be surprised and perhaps somewhat in awe (oh and, as I said in my first mention, the Kate Bush thing was merely to help illustrate the point that it's partly a physical thing.... and yes the male/female thing makes it seem less likely, but some male singers do sound more female than others.... check out 'Death Vessel' for example (I know for sure I couldn't sing like him either) ). And genuinely, if you can be so versatile I would love to hear, just as I'd love to hear any talented singer post their work on here.... that's one of the best things about being here.

 

None of my wording is intended to be insulting at all. I am disagreeing with you, but I hoped I was doing that politely. I was only trying to write and make my point clearly. If that sounded insulting for any reason then I failed.... 

 

It does sound like you've taken my words the wrong way, and I'm guessing that would continue... so yes it's best to leave it there...but I had to make this final post to be clear that there was no insult intended and none should be taken.

 

 

Well its sad that in this life if u believe in yourself at ALL that it tends to threaten others.  cest la vie

 

I already posted some clips of me singing. Some of the singing is ok, some not that great. As I stated, I JUST started singing in 2016 already a million years old. Im not quite in Dio or Halfords league yet. Dio is particularly elusive. Frankly some like Chris Cornell arent THAT hard

 

I have barely tried to use any distortion or even strong compression yet because I am trying to be safe and conservative and not develop nodules etc lol. I dont want to go for too much too soon but I am gradually getting stronger. Some stuff I wont ever try. I have no desire to sing like Brian Johnson even tough I think its cool. To me, once you go there you may not make it back. So most of my singing so far has been really 'clean' and doesnt even sound like rock really

 

for me, the hardest part is focusing on what exactly to do. Having capabilities and actually being able to SHOW them is 2 different things. I can sing way better than I have shown....mainly because my recording methods and habits are not that great. Everything I have recorded was more or less written AS it was being sung. Start off with some scribbled lyrics, try a few phrases, do more takes, change stuff etc. All done in about an hour before the voice gets too tired. Its not ideal but im working on getting a better system

 

same for lead guitar. Ive played lead for almost 30 years and in the last 3 years its gotten WAY better. yet 95% of my demos dont have lead playing. Having it and being able to focus and write a piece of music to show it are 2 different things

 

The main limitations are self belief and time

 

here is a quicky I did last year over another guys music track. Im only singing here, not playing guitar etc. Nothing extreme going on there, just basic mostly clean singing

 

https://clyp.it/gf5nc5if

 

thats a paraphrase of Psalm 7 btw lol

[JonJon67]

dude right here knocking out Dio and Marvin Gaye from the same throat. Maybe not exactly mimicking ether one but just goes to show whats possible. There are people online with endless covers of different styles

 

 

 

then again there is this guy.....

 

 

[JonJon67]

same dude in these 2 clips????

 

https://clyp.it/fi2auomr

 

https://clyp.it/tkzxtes5

[MonoStone]

You do sound like you likely have a versatile voice, and you sound very good. I like your voice.

 

Again, even after listening to one track by you I don't know the full extent of what you can do... but that wasn't my point, that part of this 'debate' was not about YOU. as I said before I just don't believe that everyone has the capability. 

 

I think there's a tendency for anyone with exceptional capability in anything to believe that there's nothing special about themselves. It can be hard to understand why you can do something that someone else can't. I can draw, naturally, so it feels odd to me that some people seem not to be capable... it feels like it's their fault, like they should just try, believe in themselves, learn, etc.... BUT... I know for a fact that some people just can't do it, because I've witnessed countless individuals who have massive self-belief and have had extensive training but still couldn't draw an accurate image of reality, far from it.

 

Likewise, there are countless singers who believe they're amazing (so not lacking in that department) and have spent hours and $$$$ on training but still sound like a dying cat! 

 

I just don't buy the 'anyone can do anything' attitude. BUT that doesn't mean that I think people who can do something others can't are better people or to be worshipped in any way. 

 

Again, I guess we don't agree... and that wasn't the point of your OP, it was something that came up in the comments and replies, and I don't want to keep going over it.

 

 

 

 

[JonJon67]

13 minutes ago, MonoStone said:

I don't know the full extent of what you can do.

 

exactly. I dont either lol. We are all capable of way more than we think

 

This one dude online, he is a semi pro singer. He was already a singer etc and he said he decided he wanted to learn the David Lee Roth whistle scream. Me personally I have heard maybe 5 people do it. BonJovi can do it a bit, dude from BulletBoys used to do it a bit. No one can do it like Dave.

 

Dude said it took him a YEAR of working at it to get it. But he did get it and says it hasnt hurt his voice at all etc. Dude was already basically a pro yet it took him a year. No question....most folks would have copped out with "its just not in my genetics"

 

does it at .27 and at 1:36

 

 

 

The Prince, Paul McCartney, Stevie Wonder types....I dont think they have more innate talent than others for the most part. I think they are driven workaholics who dont even think of "cant". It  never even enters their mind that something cant be done

[MonoStone]

19 minutes ago, JonJon67 said:

 

exactly. I dont either lol. We are all capable of way more than we think

 

This one dude online, he is a semi pro singer. He was already a singer etc and he said he decided he wanted to learn the David Lee Roth whistle scream. Me personally I have heard maybe 5 people do it. BonJovi can do it a bit, dude from BulletBoys used to do it a bit. No one can do it like Dave.

 

Dude said it took him a YEAR of working at it to get it. But he did get it and says it hasnt hurt his voice at all etc. Dude was already basically a pro yet it took him a year. No question....most folks would have copped out with "its just not in my genetics"

 

does it at .27 and at 1:36

 

 

We still don't agree. It's one thing for someone who's already a good singer to become a better or different singer, but there are many many people who couldn't get a great singing voice and range with a lifetime of trying. Your points and example DO agree with me actually, because as I said earlier... training and technique can enhance or improve on what you already have.

 

What we're talking about here is whether singing requires some degree of natural ability or whether training can make a great singer of absolutely anyone. We disagree!

 

It's kind of a silly point to be debating though. 

 

As for what type of voice or style you should choose.... only you can decide. And again, personally I don't like the idea of conforming to a style. Most people appreciate originality coupled with talent more than just talent alone. 

[JonJon67]

Just now, MonoStone said:

 

We still don't agree. It's one thing for someone who's already a good singer to become a better or different singer, but there are many many people who couldn't get a great singing voice and range with a lifetime of trying. Your points and example DO agree with me actually, because as I said earlier... training and technique can enhance or improve on what you already have.

 

What we're talking about here is whether singing requires some degree of natural ability or whether training can make a great singer of absolutely anyone. We disagree!

 

It's kind of a silly point to be debating though. 

 

As for what type of voice or style you should choose.... only you can decide. And again, personally I don't like the idea of conforming to a style. Most people appreciate originality coupled with talent more than just talent alone. 

 

 

Haha, we definitely dont agree because its WAY harder for an accomplished person to make gains than it is for a newb

[Richard Tracey]

I think the point being raised JonJon, is that at the moment you are the only one who thinks the way you do about this subject.

The rest, including me, have all mentioned that a small few people will be able to have a diverse range in their vocal capabilities. People can learn and practice to get better, but our genetics can limit what we are capable of.

There are many singers out there, discovered and not who are incredible singers and can do amazing things with their voice. I have heard children sing with more passion than most singers in the charts. Their vocal will change as their body develops, but they are obviously born with that vocal capability over another child who has a thin tinny vocal.

As I have stated and others, we perfect what WE have to suit the music or the music to suit our vocal.

I would keep singing your songs, trying out different vocal styles to see what fits that particular song. I have many songs where I have adapted my vocal to what I think sounds better. That is what you need to look at doing.

Dont worry about trying to sound like someone else, sound like you and if that means you happen to sound like one of those you mentioned, then that is maybe a bonus.

 

We are not aggressive on this site, but we try to have reasoned discussion, so I do not believe that anyone would be aggressive in their posting to you, no matter how it may read.

[Just1L]

My vision is crystal clear, it's my actual abilities that are foggy.

[JonJon67]

11 hours ago, Richard Tracey said:

I think the point being raised JonJon, is that at the moment you are the only one who thinks the way you do about this subject.

 

 TBH I feel pretty good about that and its nothing new

 

The main reason for that as I see it is.....

 

This isnt a SINGING website (AFAIK). This is more of a SONGWRITING website. Most folks on any decent singing website would feel exactly as I do.....just the same as anyone on a bodybuilding website would be 100% sure that anyone can improve their body.

 

Singing is just like bodybuilding or sprinting or similar activities. It's a physical activity. The ONLY people who can speak about being near some sort of genetic limit are ELITE athletes. Usain Bolt was probably near his limits. Some kid in High School isnt near his limit and some average Joe walking down the street is NOWHERE near his limit.

 

Whitney Houston, Steve Perry, Aretha Franklin at their peak might have been pretty close to their genetic limits (and even they had stuff they could have learned)

 

I am nowhere near as accomplished as those people...so I am NOWHERE near my genetic limits. I have room for massive improvements. Others can decide for themselves where they are

 

if 10,000 people told me they couldn't improve their singing or they couldnt develop much more versatility, id simply say that 10,000 people were wrong

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Richard Tracey]

9 hours ago, JonJon67 said:

 TBH I feel pretty good about that and its nothing new

 

The main reason for that as I see it is.....

 

This isnt a SINGING website (AFAIK). This is more of a SONGWRITING website. Most folks on any decent singing website would feel exactly as I do.....just the same as anyone on a bodybuilding website would be 100% sure that anyone can improve their body.

 

Singing is just like bodybuilding or sprinting or similar activities. It's a physical activity. The ONLY people who can speak about being near some sort of genetic limit are ELITE athletes. Usain Bolt was probably near his limits. Some kid in High School isnt near his limit and some average Joe walking down the street is NOWHERE near his limit.

 

Whitney Houston, Steve Perry, Aretha Franklin at their peak might have been pretty close to their genetic limits (and even they had stuff they could have learned)

 

I am nowhere near as accomplished as those people...so I am NOWHERE near my genetic limits. I have room for massive improvements. Others can decide for themselves where they are

 

if 10,000 people told me they couldn't improve their singing or they couldnt develop much more versatility, id simply say that 10,000 people were wrong

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Again, you are talking at cross purposes here. We are not disagreeing that with practice you can improve on what you have, but you need to have something to begin with. There are a hell of a lot of people that cannot and will not ever be able to sing a note. They are just not built that way. There are others who have a passable voice and can improve it slightly, but will never get passed that level. There are others who will be able to improve and get better, but will only ever go as far as the limits of their genetic vocal capabilities- as in, it is already there. Then there are the singers who are just incredible and don’t have to put much effort in, as it is a natural gift for them.

 

As Dek mentioned, this is the same with art. You get taught art at school, but not everyone can do it, they are not designed that way and it doesn’t matter how much they try, they will never be able to draw or paint to a decent level.

 

Bodybuilders is a bad analogy, as nearly all of them take body enhancing drugs to get to the size they are. That is fact and no-one can tell me any different. You can tell the people who go to the gym and workout everyday and don’t take anything and the one’s that do. There are always side effects when you do that, so taking those drugs to look huge, effects their heart, their brains and the thing downstairs (allegedly).

 

People on a singing website will tell you you can get better as that is what they believe, it doesn’t mean that it is true. How many of them have really progressed as a singer with years of practice and vocal training. There may be a few, but they would always have been able to push themselves further. You just have to look at the number of singers over the years who have been told to rest their voices or they will lose the ability to sing, they are pushing their voice too far, their voice doesn’t want to do the things they are trying to do, it can’t. That tells you that everyone has a limit. The trick is to know your limit and stick within that.

 

Let your music dictate your voice and how you want to sing. You might find you end up sounding like something different from what you wanted, but it works for your music and the people listening.

 

[JonJon67]

people have been bodybuilding for thousands of years lol. Steroids didnt come around till late 40s or so

 

I give up

 

 

[ImKeN]

On 10/12/2017 at 10:40 PM, JonJon67 said:

Do you have a really CLEAR idea or picture of what type of songwriter or artist you want to be?

 

This has been somewhat of a hang up for me. Its like, I dont even know EXACTLY what I want to be. I have been playing guitar forever (almost 30 years). I know who my heroes are more or less. Eddie VanHalen, Jimi Hendrix, Jimmy Page, Yngwie Malmsteen etc. Hard rock guys obviously

 

So then I started singing in 2016. Yeah of course I was like 48 years old already so I had sung along with the radio or whatever but I started actually studying and training to sing in 2016. So now its a big question of what do I want to sound like....and can I even achieve it?? Of course its hard to hit a target when you dont EXACTLY know what the target is.

 

My fave singers would be guys like David Coverdale, David Lee Roth, Ray Gillen of the late 80s band Badlands (RIP), Jorn lande, Ronnie James Dio, Rob Halford, Chris Cornell etc. Again hard rock guys. Not exactly easy to sing for sure

 

 

So the few songs I have more or less "finished". Im not THAT happy with. I mean im proud of them in that I did all the work. its all a one man show that 99% of the population cant do but its not quite like im ready to go knock down the door of a record company or even start my own youtube channel etc.

 

 

part of the problem, as I explained, is that I dont exactly know what I am going for. I know the general ballpark but of course nothing is easy and so far i havent quite gotten there yet.

 

 

Anyone else sort of fuzzy on what final overall sound to aim for???  or do you have a clear exact vision??

 

Thanks JonJon67

 

Belated welcome to Songstuff, @JonJon67. 

 

As a melody writer, I have learned that I can, somewhat, switch between genres that I'm most familiar with and enjoy making: pop/rock, pop/country, folk and a little bit of alternative r&b.

I started learning how to produce early 2016 and I have begun producing some basic EDM music and orchestral pieces. I've also tried singing lessons but I just don't have the desire or drive for it.

 

I am not sure of the exact sound I'm going for, but for now I'm content just making the music that I enjoy the most. Plus, I've heard others say that the vision become more focussed with time/experience.

 

Nice topic,

 

Ken