producers Beat Creation?

[Bridget Murphy]

On 10/6/2018 at 3:17 AM, starise said:

I mostly get my rhythms from a stringed instrument and transfer that to real drums. My tracks are not rhythmically complicated though.

I have a shaker and an Irish drum in my studio and sometimes that's all I use.

 

With an instrumental I just play until something speaks to me. If it does, then I develop it further, or I might like it raw just as it is. I haven't made any "productions" in awhile, meaning larger than life kinds of things designed to dazzle an audience. Those take a lot more time which I haven't had.

That traditional instruments, steeped in rich Celtic heritage, add a distinctive flavor to any musical endeavors.

[john]

I like a bouzouki, but on balance I tend to prefer the tone of an octave mandola.

 

I wonder if I could persuade someone to provide one of each to perform a comparison? Maybe an Irish instrument maker, I’m only over in Scotland! Maybe not.  Lol

 

I’ll keep my fingers crossed about a set of uilleann pipes, small highland A pipes and a set of Scottish border pipes for a similar comparison too! (Snowball’s chance in hell!)

 

I have a mandolin, and I played the violin for many years (same tuning). I really should put an octave mandola  or zouk on my buy list.

[starise]

On 1/18/2024 at 8:39 PM, john said:

I like a bouzouki, but on balance I tend to prefer the tone of an octave mandola.

 

I wonder if I could persuade someone to provide one of each to perform a comparison? Maybe an Irish instrument maker, I’m only over in Scotland! Maybe not.  Lol

 

I’ll keep my fingers crossed about a set of uilleann pipes, small highland A pipes and a set of Scottish border pipes for a similar comparison too! (Snowball’s chance in hell!)

 

I have a mandolin, and I played the violin for many years (same tuning). I really should put an octave mandola  or zouk on my buy list.

 

Not sure who is here, maybe you'll get lucky there. I mean in finding someone to play those instruments. I seriously thought about getting a mandolin for the same reasons. Seems it would be much easier to play than the violin. I am convinced when they invented it the inventor was trying to discourage anyone from enjoying playing music.

[john]

18 hours ago, starise said:

 

Not sure who is here, maybe you'll get lucky there. I mean in finding someone to play those instruments. I seriously thought about getting a mandolin for the same reasons. Seems it would be much easier to play than the violin. I am convinced when they invented it the inventor was trying to discourage anyone from enjoying playing music.

I like to think the violin and bagpipes were invented by the same instrument designer.

 

The brief for the violin being “invent an instrument that is difficult to play and while people learn it is deeply painful for anyone within earshot”.

 

The brief for the bagpipes was “invent a musical instrument that is very hard to play, is difficult to learn and for many it is deeply painful to hear even at great distances. As a bonus, go with the visual aesthetic that it looks like the player is caught mid-wrestle while being assaulted by the instrument”

[starise]

That's funny!

 

I guess with a little tweaking a bagpipe could be set into a loop or become a loop. I mean, no telling what it would sound like, but hey.

[Bridget Murphy]

On 1/23/2024 at 8:37 PM, john said:

I like to think the violin and bagpipes were invented by the same instrument designer.

 

The brief for the violin being “invent an instrument that is difficult to play and while people learn it is deeply painful for anyone within earshot”.

 

The brief for the bagpipes was “invent a musical instrument that is very hard to play, is difficult to learn and for many it is deeply painful to hear even at great distances. As a bonus, go with the visual aesthetic that it looks like the player is caught mid-wrestle while being assaulted by the instrument”

He/she is one hell of an inventor. I never heard someone make both a very likeable and very hated instrument.

[john]

On 2/2/2024 at 7:39 AM, Bridget Murphy said:

He/she is one hell of an inventor. I never heard someone make both a very likeable and very hated instrument.

 

I found my practice chanter yesterday. I think I’ll start practicing again  It’s been a while. The least I can do if I get a set of pipes is to be able to play tunes well. That way my neighbours at least stand a chance of being entertained. I used to play all the time, back when I had a set of highland pipes and played in a pipe band, but that was a long time ago.

[Bridget Murphy]

On 2/4/2024 at 9:10 AM, john said:

 

I found my practice chanter yesterday. I think I’ll start practicing again  It’s been a while. The least I can do if I get a set of pipes is to be able to play tunes well. That way my neighbours at least stand a chance of being entertained. I used to play all the time, back when I had a set of highland pipes and played in a pipe band, but that was a long time ago.

 Wow, that's good to hear. Best of luck on your journey.

[GregB]

For me, the beat/rhythm already exists in the song as it is developed acoustically at the kitchen table. My first-ever album (2002) was recorded in three days in a studio and had no drums/percussion at all ... there was just too much time/money pressure ... plus my cowriter/performer was too 'folk' to contemplate experiments with arranging.

 

My first home-production was in 2015. My co-writer/performer had rock band experience, so drums were a natural topic of discussion.  For the first two tracks, we each scoured the net for drum tracks/loops that might suit.  But I found that to be a sure method for going mad ... sample names that did not that describe the beats/sounds in any meaningful way so one had to audition a 100 tracks to find ONE that was suitable.  And even then, there may not be the right drum sounds, or accents, or variation and fills - things that can't be edited in a WAV file.  We just made do.

 

This time-wasting and creative frustration caused me to scour around for alternatives and I luckily found Toontrack's "EZ Drummer 2" which answered all my dreams.  Tap in a basic beat and get a list of patterns listed by 'fit'.  Choose a pattern and get a matrix of optional intros, verses, choruses, pre-choruses, bridges, fill and ends.  The number of available parent patterns depends on how many MIDI packs you have installed. The kit sounds depend on which expansion packs.  For rhythms, I have the core free ones plus I bought a few extras ... Ballas, Blues, Electronic (for just one song!), Indie Folk, Jazz (for non-standard meters), Latin, Singer-Songwriter. For sounds, on top of the kits included, and I bought Dance (for that one song), Latin and Nashville.

 

Each parent 'pattern' and each daughter 'section' can be edited to:

• change the kit
• delete/add any element of the kit (e.g. an alternative kick, or bring in the Toms if not currently being used)
• change the 'room' sound
• change the volume of each kit element relative to the others
• change the playing complexity of each kit element (e.g. if you want the ride to be less 'busy')

Once choices are made, the algorithm does the rest. E.g. it never exceeeds what two hand and two feet can do.  There is a lot of 'feel', e.g. ghost notes.   And if all this is not enough then the ultimate level of control is that any section can be dragged into the DAW where it will appear as MIDI notes ... e.g. in a section you may want a particular double-kick to be a single.

 

EZ Drummer 2 (along with the later EZD 3) helped me complete and release over 50 tracks to my complete satisfaction.  The drums have received praise from reviewers for their track-appropriateness, sound and variation.  In general, drums/percussion rarely needs more than 30mins for me to build for the whole song.  The main thing is that I get a professional sound that is sympathetic to the vibe of the track, and I get it quickly so I can concentrate on playing, singing, and arrangement.  I've not been stymied as yet, generating quite unique but appropriate drum parts that suit each song ... including one song which has sections in 3/4, 5/4 and 6/4 (see/hear https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqCznUUFeeQ) 

 

 

Here's an example of the plugin in use showing the chosen kit, a simple rhythm (kick on 1, snare on 4) that gets a list of matching 'results', how one result gives a matrix of sectional options, how those options can be auditioned add dragged to the timeline.

 

[john]

6 minutes ago, GregB said:

For me, the beat/rhythm already exists in the song as it is developed acoustically at the kitchen table. My first-ever album (2002) was recorded in three days in a studio and had no drums/percussion at all ... there was just too much time/money pressure ... plus my cowriter/performer was too 'folk' to contemplate experiments with arranging.

 

My first home-production was in 2015. My co-writer/performer had rock band experience, so drums were a natural topic of discussion.  For the first two tracks, we each scoured the net for drum tracks/loops that might suit.  But I found that to be a sure method for going mad ... sample names that did not that describe the beats/sounds in any meaningful way so one had to audition a 100 tracks to find ONE that was suitable.  And even then, there may not be the right drum sounds, or accents, or variation and fills - things that can't be edited in a WAV file.  We just made do.

 

This time-wasting and creative frustration caused me to scour around for alternatives and I luckily found Toontrack's "EZ Drummer 2" which answered all my dreams.  Tap in a basic beat and get a list of patterns listed by 'fit'.  Choose a pattern and get a matrix of optional intros, verses, choruses, pre-choruses, bridges, fill and ends.  The number of available parent patterns depends on how many MIDI packs you have installed. The kit sounds depend on which expansion packs.  For rhythms, I have the core free ones plus I bought a few extras ... Ballas, Blues, Electronic (for just one song!), Indie Folk, Jazz (for non-standard meters), Latin, Singer-Songwriter. For sounds, on top of the kits included, and I bought Dance (for that one song), Latin and Nashville.

 

Each parent 'pattern' and each daughter 'section' can be edited to:

• change the kit
• delete/add any element of the kit (e.g. an alternative kick, or bring in the Toms if not currently being used)
• change the 'room' sound
• change the volume of each kit element relative to the others
• change the playing complexity of each kit element (e.g. if you want the ride to be less 'busy')

Once choices are made, the algorithm does the rest. E.g. it never exceeeds what two hand and two feet can do.  There is a lot of 'feel', e.g. ghost notes.   And if all this is not enough then the ultimate level of control is that any section can be dragged into the DAW where it will appear as MIDI notes ... e.g. in a section you may want a particular double-kick to be a single.

 

EZ Drummer 2 (along with the later EZD 3) helped me complete and release over 50 tracks to my complete satisfaction.  The drums have received praise from reviewers for their track-appropriateness, sound and variation.  In general, drums/percussion rarely needs more than 30mins for me to build for the whole song.  The main thing is that I get a professional sound that is sympathetic to the vibe of the track, and I get it quickly so I can concentrate on playing, singing, and arrangement.  I've not been stymied as yet, generating quite unique but appropriate drum parts that suit each song ... including one song which has sections in 3/4, 5/4 and 6/4 (see/hear https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqCznUUFeeQ) 

 

 

Here's an example of the plugin in use showing the chosen kit, a simple rhythm (kick on 1, snare on 4) that gets a list of matching 'results', how one result gives a matrix of sectional options, how those options can be auditioned add dragged to the timeline.

 

 

I find pre-made loops (midi packs or audio) are pretty good for 4/4, but if you work in any other time signatures they really fall over. Virtual drummers tend to be much better here.

[GregB]

7 minutes ago, john said:

I find pre-made loops (midi packs or audio) are pretty good for 4/4

Fair enough, but I'm too much a control freak 😄

[john]

Me too. I’ve tried most things. I still prefer self-made beats. Mostly using midi triggers with some great samples. I’d love to get a midi drum kit, but I just don’t have the space. A real kit even less so. I do a lot of hand percussion with real drums. I’ve used midi libraries/audio loops for evaluation and rough demos of the quick and dirty kind. For beginners with beat creation virtual drummers and the kits that go with them are pretty useful beyond 4/4, with midi and audio loops being great for 4/4. The best 4/4 are audio+midi loops, because they have instrument one shots so if you like an audio loop but want to alter it, you can pretty easily, just by starting with the midi version of the loop with the one shot samples.

 

For some music I love using environmental sounds to create my own loops. My secret pet fav is incorporating body noises. Everything from beat boxing, eating, playing parts of your body with your hands (if you do it with someone else’s body it is called assault!), moans, groans and other body noises. It’s a fun experiment!

[GregB]

On 2/7/2024 at 11:00 AM, john said:

... moans, groans and other body noises

 

Ooh, err!! 😄

[john]

12 hours ago, GregB said:

 

Ooh, err!! 😄

 

I knew I could rely on you! Lol

[starise]

On 2/6/2024 at 6:23 PM, GregB said:

For me, the beat/rhythm already exists in the song as it is developed acoustically at the kitchen table. My first-ever album (2002) was recorded in three days in a studio and had no drums/percussion at all ... there was just too much time/money pressure ... plus my cowriter/performer was too 'folk' to contemplate experiments with arranging.

 

My first home-production was in 2015. My co-writer/performer had rock band experience, so drums were a natural topic of discussion.  For the first two tracks, we each scoured the net for drum tracks/loops that might suit.  But I found that to be a sure method for going mad ... sample names that did not that describe the beats/sounds in any meaningful way so one had to audition a 100 tracks to find ONE that was suitable.  And even then, there may not be the right drum sounds, or accents, or variation and fills - things that can't be edited in a WAV file.  We just made do.

 

This time-wasting and creative frustration caused me to scour around for alternatives and I luckily found Toontrack's "EZ Drummer 2" which answered all my dreams.  Tap in a basic beat and get a list of patterns listed by 'fit'.  Choose a pattern and get a matrix of optional intros, verses, choruses, pre-choruses, bridges, fill and ends.  The number of available parent patterns depends on how many MIDI packs you have installed. The kit sounds depend on which expansion packs.  For rhythms, I have the core free ones plus I bought a few extras ... Ballas, Blues, Electronic (for just one song!), Indie Folk, Jazz (for non-standard meters), Latin, Singer-Songwriter. For sounds, on top of the kits included, and I bought Dance (for that one song), Latin and Nashville.

 

Each parent 'pattern' and each daughter 'section' can be edited to:

• change the kit
• delete/add any element of the kit (e.g. an alternative kick, or bring in the Toms if not currently being used)
• change the 'room' sound
• change the volume of each kit element relative to the others
• change the playing complexity of each kit element (e.g. if you want the ride to be less 'busy')

Once choices are made, the algorithm does the rest. E.g. it never exceeeds what two hand and two feet can do.  There is a lot of 'feel', e.g. ghost notes.   And if all this is not enough then the ultimate level of control is that any section can be dragged into the DAW where it will appear as MIDI notes ... e.g. in a section you may want a particular double-kick to be a single.

 

EZ Drummer 2 (along with the later EZD 3) helped me complete and release over 50 tracks to my complete satisfaction.  The drums have received praise from reviewers for their track-appropriateness, sound and variation.  In general, drums/percussion rarely needs more than 30mins for me to build for the whole song.  The main thing is that I get a professional sound that is sympathetic to the vibe of the track, and I get it quickly so I can concentrate on playing, singing, and arrangement.  I've not been stymied as yet, generating quite unique but appropriate drum parts that suit each song ... including one song which has sections in 3/4, 5/4 and 6/4 (see/hear https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqCznUUFeeQ) 

 

 

Here's an example of the plugin in use showing the chosen kit, a simple rhythm (kick on 1, snare on 4) that gets a list of matching 'results', how one result gives a matrix of sectional options, how those options can be auditioned add dragged to the timeline.

 

You may have interest in EZD3 upgrade.

 

I bought it but haven't had the time to try it out. I especially like that it supposedly can follow something like a bass track and add a suggested drums track.

 

This is an older thread. My how things change. So I've gotten better at adding beats to my music instead of catering my music to the beats. I'll admit the 'EZ' name didn't give me a lot of confidence in the product originally. EZD2 sat on my hard drive mostly unused because the kits in Addictive Drummer 2 really seems to fit or the nice sounds in BFD 3  and neither of those is anything to sneeze at.

 

I am excited to try out EZD3. That whole concept reminds me of the way loops are dragged in Garage band or Acid. Another thing I have found is that a kit might sound wonderful all by itself, but when put in a mix it sounds terrible. 

Most of the time I'm looking for powerfu drums and bass on rock, prog rock and pop. Not a hip hopper. 

 

A lot of that is mixing chops to carve it into the mix, but sometime I find myself using plug ins to get that maximum benefit from  mainly the bass drum. It's almost a shame really when a kit sounds so good and has that perfect sheen but the mix eats it up, other than the in between spaces for fills.

 

Electronic musicians really have it better in that regard because there are some POWERFUL bass loops that need little in the way of mixing to make them pop. 

 

 

[john]

2 hours ago, starise said:

It's almost a shame really when a kit sounds so good and has that perfect sheen but the mix eats it up, other than the in between spaces for fills

 

Use EQ to roll off some bass content and / or to cut EQ holes in instruments with overlapping frequencies (use side chain triggered from the bass drum) that helps the bass drum cut through the mix. I’ve seen the latter used on pads, organs etc, bass guitars, FX returns and even an entire mix minus the kick drum. Using stereo slap back delay in preference to reverb also helps reduce overall frequency soup washing out any clarity in your mix.  It means you can add mild reverb too help pull the mix together while leaving more effect ambience to the slap back without paying the murky consequences!

[starise]

10 minutes ago, john said:

 

Use EQ to roll off some bass content and / or to cut EQ holes in instruments with overlapping frequencies (use side chain triggered from the bass drum) that helps the bass drum cut through the mix. I’ve seen the latter used on pads, organs etc, bass guitars, FX returns and even an entire mix minus the kick drum. Using stereo slap back delay in preference to reverb also helps reduce overall frequency soup washing out any clarity in your mix.  It means you can add mild reverb too help pull the mix together while leaving more effect ambience to the slap back without paying the murky consequences!

Noted and all good. Done all of em:) It seems to me even doing all of that the kit just isn’t the same in some mixes. Maybe it’s just me.

Ozone uses a kind of AI which often gets pretty close. I usually don’t use it. Some frequencies  step on one another to a small degree no matter what, I try to minimize And it’s odd because I have spent hours on a mix and no better or not by much, while other times everything clicks.

[GregB]

8 hours ago, starise said:

You may have interest in EZD3 upgrade.

 

I DID upgrade.  The best thing for me was a resizable window.  The 'rhythm-from-a-recording' you mentioned was not a feature I needed nor have I used it other than to see what it does.   No doubt, there's more features than before but the interface seems to have become a bit TOO complex ... and I can't say it's helped me to generate better drum tracks than EZD2 -  which did a fine job for me.

[Glammerocity]

On 1/23/2024 at 12:37 PM, john said:

The brief for the bagpipes was “invent a musical instrument that is very hard to play, is difficult to learn and for many it is deeply painful to hear even at great distances. As a bonus, go with the visual aesthetic that it looks like the player is caught mid-wrestle while being assaulted by the instrument”

 

Why do bagpipers walk when they play?

To get away from the noise.

 

What's the definition of a gentleman?

A man who can play the bagpipes but doesn't.

 

What's the definition of perfect pitch?

When you throw a set of pagpipes in a skip and it doesn't touch the sides.

 

What's the difference between bagpipes and an accordian?

It's easier to set fire to bagpipes.

 

What are bagpipes good for?

Setting fire to an accordian.

[starise]

On 2/9/2024 at 11:11 PM, GregB said:

 

I DID upgrade.  The best thing for me was a resizable window.  The 'rhythm-from-a-recording' you mentioned was not a feature I needed nor have I used it other than to see what it does.   No doubt, there's more features than before but the interface seems to have become a bit TOO complex ... and I can't say it's helped me to generate better drum tracks than EZD2 -  which did a fine job for me.

 

I tried it for the first time over the weekend. I liked it overall. BFD3 went to a less realistic graphic which never hurt the program but to me it seems to lack something when they went that direction. I know, it's just a graphic, but I need to feel like they are real drums so those graphics help me to see it that way. A very minor nit that I liked as a feature in this version which is very drum graphic intensive in comparison. 

 

The bigger window, yes I love that. The size in EZD2 was 2.5 gb and in EZD3 it's 15gb. A LOT more sounds. Sounds are pretty nice and very tweakable.I like the visual of the patterns in the patterns area as looking at the midi helps me to get an idea for the pattern. Those patterns can be dragged over.

 

The biggest thing I had hoped would be helpful is that AI feature where EZD3 is supposed to find a drum track for your part by dropping it in. I played a fairly well timed guitar part . It couldn't find anything that fit perfectly.  It was fairly complex though. Maybe a more simple part would have been fine. I had higher hopes that it would have been close because I often play guitar parts on an acoustic and try to put drums into it. 

 

 

 

Edited February 12 by starise