Why do you think most songwriters never finish and release their songs?

[keyboardcoach521]

Why do you think most songwriters never finish and release their songs? 

[Ed Driscoll]

When you're talking about songwriting, are you talking about someone never writing or recording a song's lyrics and music, and simply carrying it around permanently in their head?  Or do you mean a crude demo recording that goes no further?

 

In any case, Sisyphus strain in some cases -- the fear that once I'm done with this one, I'm obligated to get the boulder up the hill again with a new song. For many, it's a fear that of being be told how much their song sucks if they share it with the band/their friends/YouTube, etc., and taking rejection personally. (Lots of songwriters refer to songs as "their babies." If that's your analogy, it's understandable why you don't want to see them thrown to the wolves.)

 

But artwork never seeing the light of day is true in all genres -- how many articles, books, or screenplays are started and then abandoned permanently into a drawer or a hard drive?  How paintings are begun and then never completed?

[john]

A whole bunch of reasons, ranging from lack of confidence through lack of knowledge, lack of time, lack of process, lack of tools, lack of budget, lack of contacts  and more

[MikeRobinson]

Gotta say this, though ... this is called, "begging the question."

• Why do most songwriters never finish and release their songs? 
• Have you stopped beating your wife?

Same thing.

 

"The creative process" is never certain.  Most professional songwriters approach this reality by quietly working to accumulate a so-called catalog of "songs for sale."  

• Even if a song is "not yet finished," it quickly could be ... and "how would you like it, mister customer" ... should you now be interested in buying it.  
• Likewise, any particular "catalog song" won't be released until someone buys it – unless it's offered [in an unfinished form(?)] for advertising purposes.

Sometimes, it's most-strategic to bankroll a large number of admittedly-undeveloped products, each now ready for the customization requested by a particular interested buyer.

[Just1L]

13 hours ago, MikeRobinson said:

Gotta say this, though ... this is called, "begging the question."

• Why do most songwriters never finish and release their songs? 
• Have you stopped beating your wife?

Same thing.

 

"The creative process" is never certain.  Most professional songwriters approach this reality by quietly working to accumulate a so-called catalog of "songs for sale."  

• Even if a song is "not yet finished," it quickly could be ... and "how would you like it, mister customer" ... should you now be interested in buying it.  
• Likewise, any particular "catalog song" won't be released until someone buys it – unless it's offered [in an unfinished form(?)] for advertising purposes.

Sometimes, it's most-strategic to bankroll a large number of admittedly-undeveloped products, each now ready for the customization requested by a particular interested buyer.

 

I understand most of what you're saying but bullet point 2 has me scratching my head. Are you saying people will stop beating their wife as soon as someone offers them money to do so? Or they're only beating them a little and once they get an offer from someone they'll finish her off? Really missing something here.

[ImKeN]

16 hours ago, MikeRobinson said:

"The creative process" is never certain.  Most professional songwriters approach this reality by quietly working to accumulate a so-called catalog of "songs for sale."  

• Even if a song is "not yet finished," it quickly could be ... and "how would you like it, mister customer" ... should you now be interested in buying it.  
• Likewise, any particular "catalog song" won't be released until someone buys it – unless it's offered [in an unfinished form(?)] for advertising purposes.

 

Never heard of that before, I have a few unfinished songs so maybe I should be creating a catalog(website) instead of keeping them hidden in my hard drive...🤔 Thanks for the tip!

 

Ken

[keyboardcoach521]

Ed Driscoll, I'm referring more of the demo recording process. 

[MikeRobinson]

FYI – "have you stopped beating your wife?" is the classic example used in school to describe the fallacy called "begging the question."  As you see, it cannot be answered "yes" or "no."

[Just1L]

Ah, never heard of that one.

[Peggy]

On 3/31/2019 at 8:25 PM, MikeRobinson said:

FYI – "have you stopped beating your wife?" 

 

I've heard this. It's a loaded yes/no question.  

 

You may not be married and/or you have never beaten your wife.

 

So to answer no implies you have not stopped.

 

To answer yes implies you were beating your wife.

 

I need to get back to finishing and releasing. Haha..

 

[lemonstar]

On 2/9/2019 at 5:31 AM, keyboardcoach521 said:

Why do you think most songwriters never finish and release their songs? 

I sometimes think something like the converse of this - "Why do some (amateur) songwriters spend so much time, effort and expense to finesse a recording and "release" their songs (knowing that very few people will hear them)?"

 

I have a few friends that do that and I don't quite understand the reasons because a) it often involves a relatively large financial expenditure in terms of gear - instruments, recording apparatus - lots of time time and effort. I can appreciate the pride that comes with making a great recording though but the vast majority of my pleasure comes from constructing the song. Anyone who works full (or even part-time these days), has a family or an important relationship in their life should consider themselves very lucky if their partner is understanding enough to accept this investment of money, time and effort/attention when making music is clearly a hobby. I do know one musician who has been going at it as a musician for years - moved to London to be in the right place to make connections and gig and his day job is only there to fund his main aim in life - to earn a living from doing what he loves - he has come close on more than one occasion to gaining some measure of success but IMHO it is looking less likely as he has got older and he has given up everything to pursue his career in music - education, jobs, relationships and invested a lot of time, money and effort in it. On the other hand I know one musician who is an incredibly gifted songwriter - he is also a grade 8 guitarist and grade 8 trombonist and went to the Royal Northern School of Music but he did English at university and is lecturing/teaching in San Jose, California - he hardly does anything with music now - I have a collection of 20 songs that are hands down some of the most treasured recordings I have - the closest artist to him I can think of is Andy Partridge of XTC.

 

On 2/10/2019 at 10:34 PM, john said:

A whole bunch of reasons, ranging from lack of confidence through lack of knowledge, lack of time, lack of process, lack of tools, lack of budget, lack of contacts  and more

I can only speak for myself - I like to do creative things and this includes song writing as well as poetry in about equal measure - I have also written 3 plays and I'm writing a non-fiction book about my daughters recovery from a serious illness. As far as the music goes - I spent my life behind a computer writing software (it's an all consuming job, keeping abreast of new tools, libraries, languages, technologies) and honestly - I now have a very negative view of time spent behind a computer or on-line - I value my time with a guitar in my hand, singing and writing and the last thing I want to do is to spoil that complete break from working with computers and technology by going through the process of recording or making a final "product" - I have no appetite for it - writing my songs is the part I enjoy - I will take them to open mics when the opportunities come up because I enjoy singing and performing but very few people are really going to be interested in anything I write - for me, there is no point in making a recording and releasing it. I find that living a life, which includes being creative, highly therapeutic - I get to reflect on what I see and think and because I am always "switched on" as a writer looking for things to write about, I believe I am more engaged with nature, the world around me, other people and even myself - it's helpful to reflect as it helps me make sense of everything - actually putting hard to define experiences into words is helpful in building an understanding of my life. I have some money to invest in more or better equipment but actually I have enough if I wanted to use it - I don't want to use it or spend the time on it because I worked out why I do what I do (as explained above) and it doesn't mean enough to me to want to make good recordings - if anything, I'm far more interest in developing my craft as a writer. It's a hobby - I have others - 2 allotments to look after and I have three important people in my life that always come before anything else.

[Got The Tee Shirt]

Well I would say they are probably not ready to  release a song , 

 

Too many believe that it's a easy thing to do,   if you have a Very Good Band

 

who welcomes new  songs written in collaboration with other members

 

then that's a great start

 

Being bought up In Gosport Hants in the U K   we had a few  local musicians 

 

who found some fame   Portsmouth Band  -  Manfred Man - and Joe Jackson 

 

were  local   Musicians  who  Got Record Deals     Knowing Joe Jackson well

 

he  was turned  down by most U K Labels , others would have given up  NOt Joe

 

he went to the U S A    where  he  eventually got  a  Deal      Joe has a distinct Style

 

The Troggs    broke  through  as well   as  other   Hampshire Based Bands 

 

I dont know of many solo song writers  who  got Staff  Deals  

 

The answer to the question could be  Not Good Enough or  Not Prepared to 

 

chase  all the openings that exist  ,   However many have too many other things going

 

on in their lives too search  for FAME -- nothing wrong with that  

[keyboardcoach521]

On 2/9/2019 at 12:38 AM, Ed Driscoll said:

When you're talking about songwriting, are you talking about someone never writing or recording a song's lyrics and music, and simply carrying it around permanently in their head?  Or do you mean a crude demo recording that goes no further?

 

In any case, Sisyphus strain in some cases -- the fear that once I'm done with this one, I'm obligated to get the boulder up the hill again with a new song. For many, it's a fear that of being be told how much their song sucks if they share it with the band/their friends/YouTube, etc., and taking rejection personally. (Lots of songwriters refer to songs as "their babies." If that's your analogy, it's understandable why you don't want to see them thrown to the wolves.)

 

But artwork never seeing the light of day is true in all genres -- how many articles, books, or screenplays are started and then abandoned permanently into a drawer or a hard drive?  How paintings are begun and then never completed?

 

 

Ed Driscoll, I'm referring more of the demo recording process. 

[keyboardcoach521]

On 2/9/2019 at 12:38 AM, Ed Driscoll said:

When you're talking about songwriting, are you talking about someone never writing or recording a song's lyrics and music, and simply carrying it around permanently in their head?  Or do you mean a crude demo recording that goes no further?

 

In any case, Sisyphus strain in some cases -- the fear that once I'm done with this one, I'm obligated to get the boulder up the hill again with a new song. For many, it's a fear that of being be told how much their song sucks if they share it with the band/their friends/YouTube, etc., and taking rejection personally. (Lots of songwriters refer to songs as "their babies." If that's your analogy, it's understandable why you don't want to see them thrown to the wolves.)

 

But artwork never seeing the light of day is true in all genres -- how many articles, books, or screenplays are started and then abandoned permanently into a drawer or a hard drive?  How paintings are begun and then never completed?

 

In my opinion, song arrangement is super important because that can transform a mediocre song into a super good and memorable one, a poor arrangement can actually turn a song with great lyrics/melodies into mediocre if u know what I mean. I also personally know and have heard of many songs sung by superstars that aren't that great, but because it's performed by a famous singer, they could sing crap and their fans would still say it's the best.  

[ccarnucci]

I like creating music and writing songs.  I also like learning how to record, produce, mix and master music.  I love collaborating with others, so I do that as often as I can. 

 

I hate even the the thought of trying to promote my music. Just no enjoyment there, so I don't.

[john]

30 minutes ago, ccarnucci said:

I like creating music and writing songs.  I also like learning how to record, produce, mix and master music.  I love collaborating with others, so I do that as often as I can. 

 

I hate even the the thought of trying to promote my music. Just no enjoyment there, so I don't.

 

I wouldn't try to persuade you, but I would be interested in understanding this line of thought better. I could guess, if for no other reason than once upon a time (shock horror) I felt similar (although our reasoning might be different).

 

I can say that now I look at promotion as another creative task. There is a difference between marketing and sales although they do overlap. Marketing is yet another conversation between the artist and their fans.

 

There is a case to be said that as soon as you tell anyone about your music it is promoting it. Even posting it on a music website that does the promotion for you, you still initiated the activity by uploading the song. You are also branding yourself by using a logo, so I am interested in what marketing and promotion activities you find acceptable and which not or which are in no-man's-land? No judgement, just curiosity

 

All that aside, can I ask, what do you hate about promoting your music? Can you tie it down to anything that started you feeling this way towards promoting your music? What do you feel uncomfortable with? Is it an underlying motive? Is it a general aversion to promotion? Do you have a reaction to other people promoting their music? etc.

 

Are any activities at all okay?

 

I know for myself I used to think of salesmen as all being like double glazing salesmen. In my mind they were not to be trusted. At all. They were unscrupulous, greedy and self-serving. But my dad was in sales. A different kind of sales (in the whisky trade) and he is totally honest and ethical. I later realised that I had held onto that childhood mistrust of salesmen and sales activities, and that somehow, to sell, was to be dishonest. Funny the stuff we carry with us.

 

After I realised why I felt the way I did, I was gradually able to re-appraise marketing and promotion. I realised it came down to personal ethics. It always had. Much like a gun (and many other things in life). The choice of where and when to use it, and the threshold you have to pass in order to use it, are down to personal character.

 

I am not a money oriented person. I can appreciate it's necessity in the modern world and the benefits that a lot of money can bring, but personal wealth accumulation is not what drives me (as evidenced by me running Songstuff lol ). It's not what gets me out of bed in the morning.

 

I have taught quite a lot of artists about marketing and promoting their music. I promote Songstuff for that matter, though I do so fairly gently.

 

Anyway, I am honestly not trying to pick at you, I just find such positions and feelings intriguing, so I hope you don't mind me asking.

 

[Odanada]

2 hours ago, john said:

Anyway, I am honestly not trying to pick at you, I just find such positions and feelings intriguing, so I hope you don't mind me asking.

 

Hey John

 

 While I agree with all the points you make and applaud the gentle way you present them, I'll tell you about how it relates to me.

 

I enjoy writing songs very much and am very proud of some of what I write.

I enjoy a little home style jamming and would be confident in a (small) kitchen guitar pull, but that's about it. I haven't really played with anyone in ages - musically, I tend to live in my head quite a bit.

 I am sensitive and flawed and the thought of stage performing or putting myself out there in a self promotional way is intimidating.

 I am not great (read terrible) at recording and this makes my songs sound raw and unpolished even though I probably put a great deal of effort into their composition. If the recipe to getting your work heard involves having a polished recording and self promotion, I'm simply missing some important ingredients and not willing/able to go shopping for them.

 

 Put those last 2 paragraphs together and they scream "lack of confidence" and "lack of drive" - and I'll reply "that sounds fair enough."

 

 But now I've climbed out of my musical fetal position and come exploring here at Songstuff.

 There are some songs (and artists) here that are really good - and a few that are amazing

  It's an interesting and supportive place and I'm working towards posting something. But my recordings are not great (and not likely to get much better) and my playing is not the best. So I spin in little circles looking to kick start the updraft that will turn into the funnel cloud needed for me to actually post a song. Unfortunately, I seem to be finding more drafts than funnel clouds

 

I guess we all come here for the same reason, but some of us are just unreasonable.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[john]

6 hours ago, Odanada said:

I enjoy writing songs very much and am very proud of some of what I write.

I enjoy a little home style jamming and would be confident in a (small) kitchen guitar pull, but that's about it. I haven't really played with anyone in ages - musically, I tend to live in my head quite a bit.

 I am sensitive and flawed and the thought of stage performing or putting myself out there in a self promotional way is intimidating.

 I am not great (read terrible) at recording and this makes my songs sound raw and unpolished even though I probably put a great deal of effort into their composition. If the recipe to getting your work heard involves having a polished recording and self promotion, I'm simply missing some important ingredients and not willing/able to go shopping for them.

 

I haven't jammed with anyone let alone a serious project for many years, though I forced myself to go do a couple of open mic nights starting last year and although during the first I was a bundle of nerves, by the second I was already settling into old familiar rhythms. Confidence is a funny thing. It has very little to do with skill but a lot to do with experience.

 

On the last, luckily skills can be learned and there are some great engineers/producers to help you with that journey and believe me, it's a journey each of us has made,

 

6 hours ago, Odanada said:

 But now I've climbed out of my musical fetal position and come exploring here at Songstuff.

 There are some songs (and artists) here that are really good - and a few that are amazing

  It's an interesting and supportive place and I'm working towards posting something. But my recordings are not great (and not likely to get much better) and my playing is not the best. So I spin in little circles looking to kick start the updraft that will turn into the funnel cloud needed for me to actually post a song. Unfortunately, I seem to be finding more drafts than funnel clouds

 

Awesome! Just don't think "I will do the recording first and then get to that other stuff". If your material isn't ready, then consider preparing your own platform in the background but learn by helping someone else with their project? Not  only is it a great way to learn, but it is rewarding and for indie, cooperation is the way forward.

 

Glad you found us

[ccarnucci]

On 6/25/2019 at 6:16 AM, john said:

 

I wouldn't try to persuade you, but I would be interested in understanding this line of thought better. I could guess, if for no other reason than once upon a time (shock horror) I felt similar (although our reasoning might be different).

 

I can say that now I look at promotion as another creative task. There is a difference between marketing and sales although they do overlap. Marketing is yet another conversation between the artist and their fans.

 

There is a case to be said that as soon as you tell anyone about your music it is promoting it. Even posting it on a music website that does the promotion for you, you still initiated the activity by uploading the song. You are also branding yourself by using a logo, so I am interested in what marketing and promotion activities you find acceptable and which not or which are in no-man's-land? No judgement, just curiosity

 

All that aside, can I ask, what do you hate about promoting your music? Can you tie it down to anything that started you feeling this way towards promoting your music? What do you feel uncomfortable with? Is it an underlying motive? Is it a general aversion to promotion? Do you have a reaction to other people promoting their music? etc.

 

Are any activities at all okay?

 

I know for myself I used to think of salesmen as all being like double glazing salesmen. In my mind they were not to be trusted. At all. They were unscrupulous, greedy and self-serving. But my dad was in sales. A different kind of sales (in the whisky trade) and he is totally honest and ethical. I later realised that I had held onto that childhood mistrust of salesmen and sales activities, and that somehow, to sell, was to be dishonest. Funny the stuff we carry with us.

 

After I realised why I felt the way I did, I was gradually able to re-appraise marketing and promotion. I realised it came down to personal ethics. It always had. Much like a gun (and many other things in life). The choice of where and when to use it, and the threshold you have to pass in order to use it, are down to personal character.

 

I am not a money oriented person. I can appreciate it's necessity in the modern world and the benefits that a lot of money can bring, but personal wealth accumulation is not what drives me (as evidenced by me running Songstuff lol ). It's not what gets me out of bed in the morning.

 

I have taught quite a lot of artists about marketing and promoting their music. I promote Songstuff for that matter, though I do so fairly gently.

 

Anyway, I am honestly not trying to pick at you, I just find such positions and feelings intriguing, so I hope you don't mind me asking.

 

My bad for not being clearer, and no bad feelings for you asking.  What I  should have said was...i love making music, it is my passsion.  Once I start down the path of it being more than a hobby it becomes work.  And I never want this to become work.  Additionally, I create music for myself and those involved in the project.  I like others to hear it, and I hope they like it, so i do post my songs on YouTube and a few forums.  After that, I mostly  forget about them and move on to the next project.  

 

I'm cool with others promoting, it just brings me very little joy, so I do the things that bring me joy....which Is the creating parts.

 

[john]

8 hours ago, ccarnucci said:

My bad for not being clearer, and no bad feelings for you asking.  What I  should have said was...i love making music, it is my passsion.  Once I start down the path of it being more than a hobby it becomes work.  And I never want this to become work.  Additionally, I create music for myself and those involved in the project.  I like others to hear it, and I hope they like it, so i do post my songs on YouTube and a few forums.  After that, I mostly  forget about them and move on to the next project.  

 

I'm cool with others promoting, it just brings me very little joy, so I do the things that bring me joy....which Is the creating parts.

 

 

Thanks for explaining. That I can understand.

 

Speaking for myself, I also think of interacting with fans through mediums other than music as another facet of the same conversation as the music itself. Just as a video presents something visually to fans, or a stage set, or even the venue help create a live atmosphere... they are all part of a greater "arrangement" and they all require design and creativity. As artists every way we interact with fans is part of a bigger picture. So, many environmental factors set a mood, an expectation. It can predispose people to give our music a chance, to dismiss it out of hand, or to feel completely ambivalent towards it. Without any great effort, if I post up music for someone to listen to, I would prefer them to at least be open to a positive experience. If I can give it that chance by omitting a word in my promotional post, that would seem sensible to me, but I can get why you want to do what brings you joy.

 

I make music for myself and the people I jam with, but I also create it for the listeners and fans. At least I consider their experience of my music or art during creation and performance. I imagine most do in some capacity.

 

The fact that marketing and promotion is, for me, another creative task, another interaction with the fans, makes it more fun than work for me. I try to keep it fun and interesting but I recognise there are a number of other perspectives. The fan's experience of my art is an important factor to me, but it is not the only one.