How many of you songwriters out there also produce and mix your own songs? If not, why and would you consider learning how to mix songs down the line?

[keyboardcoach521]

How many of you songwriters out there also produce and mix your own songs? If not, why? Would you consider learning how to mix songs in future? For me, I didn't start producing right away and picked up mixing years later but i've been writing for a long time (I had been paying someone to produce and mix for me before learning how to do it myself eventually). Reason why I didn't start learning how to properly use a DAW right away was because i tried and got too frustrated, so i stopped for awhile, got back into it, slowly got the hang of it. As for mixing, I didn't even care learning it, again i tried and thought it was too boring for me. Or maybe i just didn't have patience back then...:( It took me years to finally doing everything myself. 

[ccarnucci]

I started learning to mix my own stuff, once I realized there was affordable software to do it.  I'm not good at it yet, but I enjoy the heck out of learning.  The pace is slow since I have  real job, but I love all the cool software we now have available.  For me this is just a passionate hobby, so I'm in no rush.  I may even try and take some courses at the college near me one day.

[Janice]

During lockdown I had no choice but to learn how to mix and master my own songs, otherwise I wasn't going to be able to continue releasing new songs.

[Peggy]

I "produce" and mix my own songs but... if I'm going to get really serious about the song, I  consider my mix not the "final" mix and would seek a professional to do a final mix before mastering, which I wouldn't do. 

[Christophe Tatlocke Holmes]

What a great topic - I hope I haven't come too late to it!

 

I've completely changed my views on this over the past decade. I used to like to try to make a song I'd written sound as if it was played by a full band. However, as the years went by I found this less and less satisfactory for the following reasons:

 

1. Unless you're a musical prodigy, there's always going to be a (sometimes glaring) weakness in the end product. For me it was the vocals; however nice the guitar sounded, and whatever effects and enhancements I used there was no disguising the fact they sounded horrible and needed a lot of work - work I wasn't able to devote to them when I was twiddling with knobs so to speak.

 

2. Making a finished product can stunt the development of the song. I found I invariably wanted to produce a finished song when it wasn't ready, and although working on it during the recording process did develop songs a little, it was never as effective as the organic development of playing it without sticking to a rigid format that once you've committed to HDD you can't move away from without starting again.

 

3. It can hinder you from finding your own voice. I found myself wanting to essentially copy artists I admired. Admittedly, this happens in every aspect of music from songwriting to guitar playing - you try to sound like people you admire and who inspired you in the first place. But with multitracking and DAW it's just too easy. At least with a cheap guitar and a shoebox tape recorder it was impossible to sound like your idols - you were forced to be original!

 

4. (related to point #3) I think producing your own songs can often stifle creativity. Why are so many people backing their songs with thudding rock drums? I've heard so many demos where this bludgeons all the sensitivity and atmosphere out of the piece. A friend of mine told me once his aim was to sound like a band. Why? It's 2022 - bands needn't comprise vocals, guitars, bass, drums and keys anymore.

 

5. It's pretending to be something you're not (related to point #4). Sincerity is important in music, and a computer impersonating a drummer just undermines credibility imo.

 

6. Now there are so many people at all levels producing slick music via DAWs, isn't it all just getting a bit predictable and boring? As a listener, I want to hear something that stands out from the crowd.

 

Just a few thoughts. I'm not as dead against producing "produced" music as I've perhaps come across as being - but I think it would work better for a lot of people if they got away from the idea that it's the only way to do it. It certainly helped me to ditch that particular piece of received wisdom, and I enjoy writing and making more now as a result.

Edited June 2, 2022 by Chris W

[Janice]

On 6/2/2022 at 3:54 PM, Chris W said:

What a great topic - I hope I haven't come too late to it!

 

I've completely changed my views on this over the past decade. I used to like to try to make a song I'd written sound as if it was played by a full band. However, as the years went by I found this less and less satisfactory for the following reasons:

 

1. Unless you're a musical prodigy, there's always going to be a (sometimes glaring) weakness in the end product. For me it was the vocals; however nice the guitar sounded, and whatever effects and enhancements I used there was no disguising the fact they sounded horrible and needed a lot of work - work I wasn't able to devote to them when I was twiddling with knobs so to speak.

 

2. Making a finished product can stunt the development of the song. I found I invariably wanted to produce a finished song when it wasn't ready, and although working on it during the recording process did develop songs a little, it was never as effective as the organic development of playing it without sticking to a rigid format that once you've committed to HDD you can't move away from without starting again.

 

3. It can hinder you from finding your own voice. I found myself wanting to essentially copy artists I admired. Admittedly, this happens in every aspect of music from songwriting to guitar playing - you try to sound like people you admire and who inspired you in the first place. But with multitracking and DAW it's just too easy. At least with a cheap guitar and a shoebox tape recorder it was impossible to sound like your idols - you were forced to be original!

 

4. (related to point #3) I think producing your own songs can often stifle creativity. Why are so many people backing their songs with thudding rock drums? I've heard so many demos where this bludgeons all the sensitivity and atmosphere out of the piece. A friend of mine told me once his aim was to sound like a band. Why? It's 2022 - bands needn't comprise vocals, guitars, bass, drums and keys anymore.

 

5. It's pretending to be something you're not (related to point #4). Sincerity is important in music, and a computer impersonating a drummer just undermines credibility imo.

 

6. Now there are so many people at all levels producing slick music via DAWs, isn't it all just getting a bit predictable and boring? As a listener, I want to hear something that stands out from the crowd.

 

Just a few thoughts. I'm not as dead against producing "produced" music as I've perhaps come across as being - but I think it would work better for a lot of people if they got away from the idea that it's the only way to do it. It certainly helped me to ditch that particular piece of received wisdom, and I enjoy writing and making more now as a result.

When lockdown ended, I contacted Sugatisound Recording Studio's and asked them to remix and master my new song. They said that the timing of tracks was slightly out of sync. They corrected this and re-wrote the bass line, and added a guitar to the mix. Songs released during lockdown wasn't perfect, but still got radio airplay and chart placement.

[TonyK]

I have been mixing and mastering my own music since the beginning. For a couple of years, I had a friend of mine who used to run a recording studio years ago take a listen to anything I recorded and see how it sounded (kind of like an engineer's assistant at an actual studio). Sadly, due to non-music reasons that I really don't want to get into here, we had a falling out, so I've been learning how to mix using the experience I've learned over the last few years. I am still far from an expert though, so I send out any song mix to see if others think it sounds okay.

[GregB]

Hi Heyboardcoach521

If "How many of you ..." seeks an answer (rather than a discussion), you could create a poll.

People may prefer clicking buttons to formulating long-form responses.

[john]

On 2/15/2019 at 11:25 PM, keyboardcoach521 said:

How many of you songwriters out there also produce and mix your own songs? If not, why? Would you consider learning how to mix songs in future? For me, I didn't start producing right away and picked up mixing years later but i've been writing for a long time (I had been paying someone to produce and mix for me before learning how to do it myself eventually). Reason why I didn't start learning how to properly use a DAW right away was because i tried and got too frustrated, so i stopped for awhile, got back into it, slowly got the hang of it. As for mixing, I didn't even care learning it, again i tried and thought it was too boring for me. Or maybe i just didn't have patience back then...:( It took me years to finally doing everything myself. 

 

I do.

 

I started learning right out of school in recording studios. I was just excited about creating music, end to end. That includes mixing and mastering... though I only really mastered my own relatively recently, and still I prefer to have a good mastering engineer master my tracks. Someone who specialises in mastering can really work wonders on a track!

 

It doesn't matter about the process, as long as it is predictable, it's about the beauty of the result. When I arrange a song I hear it in my head, using my imagination, with absolute clarity. I want the sound everyone hears to match the sound I imagine. Including me!

 

To be honest, often when there isn't clarity it's just me fooling myself (again) into thinking small errors during recording (be they performance or recording process or equipment based) might not be "too bad" and hopefully won't be noticed. It took a while before I realised I am just short changing myself because the truth is, you never get away with it not being noticed. If the "quirk" benefits the song, keep it, if not, suck it up and re-do the recording of that part, or the whole song... you either believe your songs are worth it, or you don't.

[Pantonal]

I've produced and mixed my own songs for a long time, at least 40 years, with increasing levels of technological capability. It's really been an amazing ride. Even the basic technology available today is superior to actual recording studios in the 1980s. Keeping up with that has been a challenge. I wrote and recorded a bunch of songs back in the aughts (2000 - 2010). When I played them for my son (now 32) his comment was, "Sounds kinda retro Dad." That's when I knew I had to learn more about producing, but it took a bunch of years to decide to pull the trigger.

 

So earlier this year I bought one of the producing courses, in my case I chose Producer Accelerator (it was on sale), but there's also Produce Like a Boss, Produce Like a Pro, as well as Udemy and actual accredited schools (Berklee, Full Sail). The approach I learned was different from the mixing course I also tried (but didn't really like). The mixing course seemed aimed at those who wanted to sound like a band, whereas the producing course started with the concept of a song as a composition that included instruments and effects. The latter seems closer to me to what is actually happening in pop music production today. I can confidently say my music doesn't sound retro  anymore, though it also doesn't sound like insipid pop music either. That might be because I'm an old dude and I'm just not that simple minded.

 

If you want to hear my most recent productions, just go to the music tab on my web site. My older music is on the front page so you can actually compare my retro sounding songs to my recent work at: stevechandler-music.com

 

Steve

[Riff]

I producent my songs in DAW, i mostly use Cubase, Amplitube and for drums AD, SSD5 or EZ. I trying to do my best but it is not on profesionalni level, but is quite satisfactory for my opinion. 

Edited November 9, 2022 by Riff

[MisterB]

I produce all my own stuff. I don't have an outlet for it, and do it all for me. It's the way I unwind. So, if the results aren't commercial, and they're not to anyone elses taste, it doesn't matter. It served its purpose by allowing me to take control of the entire creative process. Doesn't matter how long it takes either. If I worked out how much I spend on my studio, and how many songs I produce in there, it works out very expensive. I could hire session musicians, and commercial studio time.  But that's not the point by any means. 

[andrew20smith22]

Professionally, I am a music producer but I am also a rapper. I wrote songs, compose songs, and produce songs and I think I do everything except video work. In starting, it was very hard for me to do rap without knowledge but with the help of youtube videos, blogs, and worshipchords it's easy for me and now I am very happy because i can do everything that I want.

[Glammerocity]

On 6/2/2022 at 3:54 PM, Chris T H said:

4. (related to point #3) I think producing your own songs can often stifle creativity. Why are so many people backing their songs with thudding rock drums? I've heard so many demos where this bludgeons all the sensitivity and atmosphere out of the piece. A friend of mine told me once his aim was to sound like a band. Why? It's 2022 - bands needn't comprise vocals, guitars, bass, drums and keys anymore.

 

I'd reduce that to producing can sometimes stifle creativity. I've said it numerous times before but you can mix the life out of a song. I've done it and heard it done countless times. Sometimes producers and engineers can be too technically focussed, like garage mechanics, but a song is not a car. Every top producer has more misses than hits. Nobody notices the misses or why they missed.

 

The thudding drum thing really started in the 80s, when, IMO, the sound of your producer's snare drum sample became more important than the song. It's very easy to mix a snare too loud, thinking it's driving the song, especially when it's a perfect-sounding sample. I remember falling in love with the Alesis SR-16 drum machine when it came out, because it sounded so real - I think it's all over Prince's Lovesexy album. And I think Prince was one of the few 80s artists who managed to keep the tech under control rather than letting it rule. He's also a great example of not going overboard with production when a song doesn't need it. Sign o' the Times is full of songs that have ( and needed) very little production. There's one song, Forever in my Life, a simple bass and drum loop, where the BVs are a line ahead of the main vocal. If you did that, a producer might stop you to point out you're out of sync. It's just not done!

 

I was in a band doing a radio session once. The producer told this joke:

Q: How many producers does it take to change a lightbulb?

A. Well, what do you think?

 

I thought his hearing was shot. The volume in the control room was so loud that most of us spent our time in the station's swimming pool. Everything sounds better louder. The results sounded far too reverby to me but at the time I thought he's the professional, so I should sit back and keep my mouth shut. That was the last time I let somebody else produce something I was involved in. The singer/songwriter friend whose band it was went on to sign a deal, when the band which had created the buzz and bidding war were "let go." He came to see me while making his album with a top name producer and was in tears because his album was being ruined by this guy in a sheen of technical slickness, removing all the life from his very personal songs. It flopped massively and he was dropped, never to make his second album.

Edited February 28, 2023 by Glammerocity

[CorkingCrackBand]

A fascinating thread to read through. My two pennies worth:

  I have to ‘produce’ my own music due to no money and no one in their right mind taking me on. I’ve never enjoyed mixing/mastering. For some people it’s as creative as songwriting and good for them - horses courses and all that - but not for me. I find it tedious in the extreme and have only made 1 album I would say I did a genuinely good job on. It sucked all the joy out of the process however. There’s definitely a balance to strike for me. My latest album is definitely under produced.

 

 I’d never consider something I’ve made to be the finished article, as I know I’m just a hobbyist who is far too limited in ability. It’s all about the fun of creation for me. 
  One day I’d like to point to something I’ve made and proudly say ‘I did that’ but as yet that day eludes me.

 

I think most of the members of this forum are much more professionally minded and I’ll just try to absorb as much as I can from your experiences… like some manner of music leech.

 

CCB

[Destrukto]

I do record and mix my own songs. However, it goes against the advice that I received in a music production course which is that it is generally better to get an outside ear to mix your music to take away the personal connection and provide an impartial mix. 

[Peggy]

3 hours ago, Destrukto said:

I do record and mix my own songs. However, it goes against the advice that I received in a music production course which is that it is generally better to get an outside ear to mix your music to take away the personal connection and provide an impartial mix. 

 A good general lesson, and one I learned too.  Do your mix but use other ears  (pro or pro-am) to do final mix. Get a selection and decide which one is final.  Then again, have final mix mastered by another (pro/pro-am). Get a selection and decide which one is final master.

 

Keeping involved by being provided with a selection of mixes/masters to make final decisions on. 

 

Mixing and Mastering using

- Different Ears

- Different Skills

- Different Tools

- Different Equipment 

[HoboSage]

4 hours ago, Destrukto said:

I do record and mix my own songs. However, it goes against the advice that I received in a music production course which is that it is generally better to get an outside ear to mix your music to take away the personal connection and provide an impartial mix. 

 

Not surprising advice coming from a "music production course."  I personally think it's kind of sad that they seem to want to convince you that an "impartial mix" by someone feeling no personal connection with the music is somehow a good thing, and that you shouldn't trust your own ears.  

Edited March 13, 2023 by HoboSage

[VoiceEx]

11 hours ago, HoboSage said:

Not surprising advice coming from a "music production course."  I personally think it's kind of sad that they seem to want to convince you that an "impartial mix" by someone feeling no personal connection with the music is somehow a good thing, and that you shouldn't trust your own ears.  

 

I think there is nothing wrong with seeking professional consultation and services from people who are experts in their fields, many of which may have access to more knowledge and tools than, lets say, a hobbyist or people that don't work on music full time.

 

That being said, I do do agree with you that "music production courses" are not the be-all, end-all. In fact, in some cases these courses actively "push" overlapping services and products on to their students (i.e selling both the problem and the "solution"), as a way to squeeze more money from them, while at the same time, attempting to create a dependency on their services.

Edited March 14, 2023 by VoiceEx

[Bruce Tang]

Been recording, and mixing my own stuff for quite a while with increasingly better results each album. Part of that is just experience and getting better and part of it is the huge technological leap that recording gear has taken in the last 20 years that makes it easier to get the sounds you want. Accumulating nicer equipment over the years helps too. I'm happy with my current setup and my last album I'm actually pretty happy with how it sounds. It's not pro level by any means and I'm sure a mastering engineer would rip it apart but for my purposes it works. I've learned a lot by watching pros on youtube also.

 

I started on a bulky Tascam 8 track. It was really cumbersome to record and edit mixes with that. I switched to Pro Tools until they changed to a subscription model and now its Logic Pro. With a DAW there are  a million different plugins at my fingertips. I really only scratch the surface of what you can do with a DAW  because my music is usually pretty straight on - guitars, piano, drums, bass, vocals.

 

I LOVE recording. It's "where the magic happens" a lot for me. It's an extension of the songwriting process as I don't usually fully work out all the parts of my songs until I record. Mixing, however, is super tedious to me. It feels like work and it's a lot of just check the boxes of getting EQ, compression, reverb, etc. right. I know some people enjoy that process and can get creative with it but I think that heavily depends on the type of music you're making. I can see something like EDM or hip hop being more enjoyable to mix. The sheer amount of time it takes to mix even one song can be discouraging to the normal indie musician. I have other sh!t to do but if I want the song to sound right it's like 2 hours just to get everything set up decently. Not easy to balance other life priorities when you're trying to create art.

 

All that being said I don't have any desire to outsource the mixing/mastering. I'm not looking to really make money off my music so I can't afford to fund that and it takes away from the DIY spirit that I enjoy about creating everything myself (even if it sounds like sh!t sometimes).