Challenge #15 Writing For The Strolling Bones

[Lisa Gates]

I think Kels right, you're not suppose to use your title in the song when you have a chorus, but I like your repetition, it keeps drippin drippin the lyrics inside my mind. Lol.

 

Goldy  

Thanks Goldy, Stand by for an edit. in a bit. gotta think (and no it doesn't hurt to think!! Tee Hee)

[Kel]

Hee Hee

 

The most successful song structures (generally speaking) are:

 

AABA

ABAB

ABABAB

ABABCB

 

A second verse in the beginning is an acceptable variation if the story needs it... eg

 

AABABCB

 

Yes there are exceptions, mainly when written by the artist. 

 

While it is not a "rule" to use one of these structures/forms, to have the best shot at success, why not use what works?

 

Kel

[goldylocks]

 Whoaaaa! Those are rhyme schemes, aren't they, sorry but I'm not following you. Could you please write a short example, cause I thought you were talking about the most popular formula for verse, chorus bridge structure for external writing.


Goldy    
 

[Kel]

Song forms are ususally described using the same symbology as rhyme schemes (or vice versa).

 

A is distinct melody

B is a second distinct melody

C is a third distinct melody

etc Yes, there may be more.

 

You could always think...

Verse Verse Bridge Verse (AABA)

Verse Chorus Verse Chorus (ABAB)

Verse Chorus Verse Chorus Verse Chorus (ABABAB)

Verse Chorus Verse Chrorus Bridge Chorus (ABABCB)

 

Song Structures or Forms are fairly rigid, where rhyme schemes are free and easy, no real rules other than consistency.

 

AABBCC ABAB ABCB ABBA ABAAB ABCA ABCDD ABCDE (none)

 

As you can see any pattern can be used, though the more common are ABAB, ABCB or AABB. As long as the rhyme scheme is consistent in all verses and different in the chorus and bridge, they all work.

 

 

ABAB Structure

                                                                         Rhyme

Verse ( A )

I don't know why water don't flow up hill           A

I don't know why hot air aways rises                B

I don't know why rain always falls down           C

I bet you think I'm just a silly clown!                 C

 

Chorus ( B )

You can think anything you to want                A

You can think anything you like                      B

You can think I'll never find another               C

Goodbye girl it's time to take a hike.               B

 

Verse ( A )

I don't know why paper burns in fire               A

I don't know why lemons tastes so bitter        B

I don't know why you feel the way you do      C

I bet you think I'm just a silly fool                    C

 

Chorus ( B )

You can think anything you to want               A

You can think anything you like                     B

You can think I'll never find another              C

Goodbye girl it's time to take a hike.             B

 

Hope that clarifies things a little.

K

Edited October 1, 2013 by Kel

[goldylocks]

Thank you Kel, know I understand, what was throwing me was the way your wrote the structure of the song, it was so much like the rhyme scheme. I always thought it was VCVC instead of ABAB, that's the first time I've seen a song structure written like that. I appreciate you taking your time and setting up that example for us novices. Now, I know how to write an externally acceptable song, at least the structure, still hammering out the lyric composition.

Goldy  

[Lisa Gates]

Take two:

 

Drippin’ Love

 

You give love in drips and drabs

Your love takes all I have

I shouldn’t blame you, I know

Girl, you won’t let me go

 

I try to count one, two, three

Careless tears fall on me

Rip my heart out as you please

Girl, I am on my knees

 

I’m on my knees, beggin you please

Don’t take your Drippin Love from me

Don’t take your Drippin Love from me

No matter what I do, I’m screwed

Without your Drippin Love I can’t see through

Without your Drippin Love I can’t see through

  

Now that I have had my way

Dammit girl you can’t stay

There’s someone else coming home

Girl, your love’s free to roam

 

I’m on my knees,  beggin you please

Don’t take your Drippin Love from me

Don’t take your Drippin Love from me

No matter what I do, I’m screwed

Without your Drippin Love I can’t see through

Without your Drippin Love I can’t see through

Without your Drippin Love I can’t see through

Without your Drippin Love I can’t see through

[Lisa Gates]

Song forms are ususally described using the same symbology as rhyme schemes (or vice versa).

 

A is distinct melody

B is a second distinct melody

C is a third distinct melody

etc Yes, there may be more.

 

You could always think...

Verse Verse Bridge Verse (AABA)

Verse Chorus Verse Chorus (ABAB)

Verse Chorus Verse Chorus Verse Chorus (ABABAB)

Verse Chorus Verse Chrorus Bridge Chorus (ABABCB)

 

Song Structures or Forms are fairly rigid, where rhyme schemes are free and easy, no real rules other than consistency.

 

AABBCC ABAB ABCB ABBA ABAAB ABCA ABCDD ABCDE (none)

 

As you can see any pattern can be used, though the more common are ABAB, ABCB or AABB. As long as the rhyme scheme is consistent in all verses and different in the chorus and bridge, they all work.

 

 

ABAB Structure

                                                                         Rhyme

Verse ( A )

I don't know why water don't flow up hill           A

I don't know why hot air aways rises                B

I don't know why rain always falls down           C

I bet you think I'm just a silly clown!                 C

 

Chorus ( B )

You can think anything you to want                A

You can think anything you like                      B

You can think I'll never find another               C

Goodbye girl it's time to take a hike.               B

 

Verse ( A )

I don't know why paper burns in fire               A

I don't know why lemons tastes so bitter        B

I don't know why you feel the way you do      C

I bet you think I'm just a silly fool                    C

 

Chorus ( B )

You can think anything you to want               A

You can think anything you like                     B

You can think I'll never find another              C

Goodbye girl it's time to take a hike.             B

 

Hope that clarifies things a little.

K

Nice Job!

[john]

Goldie, take a look at this article on song forms:

http://songwriting.songstuff.com/article/song-form-overview/

Listed in the article and at the bottom in related articles are a whole batch of articles each devoted to individual song forms, including song form specific playlists from our YouTube channel

There are loads more articles in our library too.

Kel, good descriptions though one point I would make regarding the most popular song forms is that if you look at them overall it can be skewed as fashion has dictated popular song forms in given time periods, the undisputed king in terms of current song forms are AB Or ABC derived or extended song forms.

AAA derived song forms are also very popular where a refrain is included, though less so these days. It is the ballad song form of course.

Song forms are useful, but they are flawed in my humble opinion, in that they are neither consistent or clear.

One confusing thing with song forms is that some describe the structure of an individual verse ( as in 12 bar blues form aka AAB) while others describe the overall song structure such as AAA, or AABA, while others the name conveys the core concept (AB) while the common implementation is the core concept applied to one of the whole song forms as a hybrid form. In fact many song forms are hybrids involving compounding with AAA or AABA.

For example, AB (verse chorus form) is a two section song form, ABC (verse chorus bridge form) is a 3 section song form, BUT, the common realisation of AB is:

ABABAB

which is AB compounded with AAA, is substitute The "A" in AAA with "AB" and you get ABABAB.

Compound AB with AABA and you actually create ABC form, ABABCAB

in other words they are building blocks, interrelated by a few core concepts.

to get a 12 bar blues song the core AAB concept has to be compounded to have multiple verses, ie AAA can be extended to AAAA or AAAAA to get as many repetitions as needed, then replace the "A" with the known verse structure AAB to get the overall song structure, AABAABAAB etc.

Weirdly the common verse structure for the base AAA structure, ie the structure of "A" includes a refrain that is most common in the final line, yet we do not have a verse form that describes that structure as in AAB.

The lack of consistency in approach makes song form theory clunky, unwieldy and questionable, with songwriters needing to learn both key concepts and core implementations in a fairly haphazard way.

What is needed is a unifying theory to tidy it all up, drawing the distinction between the form concepts and common song structures created with those base concepts (just as described in compound forms above).

One issue is that the realisation of a song form can result in different finished structures, for example, you could write an AABA song that uses a B section of 8 bars, or 6 bars or something else. The traditional approach would be to have 8, but the fact that the others can exist has to be allowed.

So the realisation only relates to the arrangement of BLOCKS or SECTIONS.

But, the standard realisation for some generally describes smaller subsections, as in AAB, while others describe the overall song architecture as in AAA.

My feeling is that we should tidy up terminology and nomenclature to make it far easier for those new to song form.

AAB can if course be used simply to describe an arrangement of two distinct sections where one is repeated, ie NOT 12 bar blues, and that is clumsy! The whole point in using song form is to simplify the communication about the structure of a song.

For me they need to standardise. They need:

Different levels and nomenclature, for example a global song structure would be the "form", while the structure of a "form section" would be a "pattern". This way, for example, the song form for a 12 bar blues would be AAA, while the form sectional pattern would be AAB

Specific NAMED common song forms, and named sectional patterns. In this case a named section would use say italics (damn, I can't add italics on my ipad!) This would draw a distinction between a generic concept and a common implementation.

For example, where AABA describes a generic arrangement of four sections of two types normal full caps would be used, whereas if full caps italics is used that would tell us it is a known common song form where each section is 8 bars long.

Why does it matter?

Well in much the same way musicians understand beats, or pitch, or harmony, with clear names meaning specific things, that common understanding allows for rapid communication and discussion. Song forms tries to do that but it is flawed in it's approach because it has evolved and grown, not been designed.

With simple song forms perhaps it hardly matters, but the more complicated the song structures become, or the more detailed, the harder communicating effectively about them becomes. A clear, thought out approach would help achieve more effective communication, and faster understanding of both concept and implementation.

Just my two cents on a topic that few people care about as much as me lmao

*gets of soap box and hides it beneath a handy bush*

[Kel]

Hi John,

 

I am one of them too! And I'm not going to get into a discussion regarding who has the bigger soapbox, or who stands taller whilst on it...

 

However, I never used the word popular, I said successful, and as I am writing now, I mean, the most successful song form, now, in today's market.

 

Success can be measured in many ways of course, but to an aspiring songwriter, I think only two termsof reference need to be looked at...

 

1. what song form is used with #1 songs in any given genre... (no need to compare death metal with accoustic folk, after all...) (okay you could say Top 10 or radio but why study second or tenth or 40th best?) and

 

2. What song form will a publisher use to pitch to an artist/record company... what song form will get picked up by a publisher in the first place?

 

Funnily enough, in Sunday's workshop, my Songwriting mentor led a discussion on "internet" forums, and Songstuff in particular since I had lead him here. He wasn't scathing but he was telling us to be careful of what we read, as not everything is accurate or current. As he is a current Publisher as well as songwriter and teacher, he has some credentials, though once again, not getting into a pissing contest between him and you, or whoever writes articles for this site.

 

One article he refered to (A wider discussion on song forms) he was disputing the song form attributed to the song Take Me To The Moon. The article presents it as an ABAB song, while he contends it is AA (and that is the form I selected for it having looked at the lyrics.)

 

Ralph Murphy who I went to see in person (and got a man hug from!) speaks and writes of Song Forms, and he lists 7 forms used in the industry today and recites stats about the song forms used by #1 songs in a variety of genres. Jacques, my mentor reduces this to 4 "successful" forms and his standard is getting considered by an A&R rep, and not thrown away because it doesn't conform to what the industry is looking for.

 

Of course, both Jacques and Ralph are speaking from an external songwriter's point of view, and doesn't consider what singer-songwriters do relevant, because they don't pitch their songs. They record them themselves. There are a few exceptions being singer-songwriters who write for other people such as John Mayer, Neil Sedaka, Neil Diamond and the like.

 

If you want to find out more about him, his name is Jacques Mario Gentil.

 

As an avid reader, I have devoured a lot of articles, here on Songstuff, by Ralph Murphy, Pat Pattison, Jason Blume, Johm Braheny, Larry Dvoskin and many more whose names I don't remember, so I really don't think I'm just regurgitating the latest information I've found. Of course, my name is not famous yet, if it ever will be? (joke!) I consider myself a student of the craft, but not exactly a beginner.

 

Anyway, I stand 7'2" on my soapbox!

 

Kel

[john]

I will need to take a look at that article and of course correct any mistake that may be there. Of course the song form use refers to the melodic sections, though granted lyrics tend to follow the melody in usage or repeat. Mistakes happen, even in books and of course websites. I would always encourage the writer to think for themselves and use their own intelligence as mistakes can and do happen. The same is true of everyone, including your songwriting teacher ( I am assuming here he does not view himself as infallible?). We have thousands of words published here, millions including the forums, so to not have some errors would be pretty amazing but highly unlikely.

Out of interest, how did Songstuff come out in your debate ? As a resource? As a community? In comparison with others? We don't get lots of feedback, especially from groups.

Of course, your teacher is very welcome to contribute to the site or even offer suggestions or corrections if he would be interested? I am always looking for talented people!

The approach your mentor takes is a very healthy one, although much depends on the motivation of the writer. While Songstuff more generally focuses on educating across the board, our upcoming products are more success oriented and as such take a similar approach, ie they focus on getting the writer to write the kind of work that both artists and publishers are currently looking for. Who know I might do some free articles in the subject! as now all the basics are in place for reference success based writing would be a good addition to the writing section. Similarly we are adding free and product content for bands that is all about success including marketing and promotion, and music recording and mastering. Giving them what they want is a good approach for anyone that wants to be successful. With Songstuff first I wanted to dot the i's and cross the t's in getting the basics in place. All done now we can move on. Yes I write all "Songstuff" articles, mistakes too

Our products also look at writing for specific artists, specific targeted publishing houses and production companies, recording and production for specific labels, production houses and even music supervisors and much more. After all giving them what they want is like a rule from the art of war lol in the modern age a writer can be an artist, performer, producer, recording and mastering engineer, music marketer and promoter and song plugger, publisher and label all rolled into one.

Incidentally one of our upcoming products is how to self publish and to extend that into publishing others. It's something I have even considered doing with Songstuff, ie adding on a publishing wing. For the product I have built upon my existing knowledge and first hand experience by consulting current publishers I know and those working in specialist services that publishers use, like Song pluggers, and others they interact with like artist development managers and music supervisors. I digress!

I am always looking to improve what we offer so please believe me that frank feedback is always desirable.

[Kel]

I knew you would.

 

I have mentioned Songstuff to him several times, and he recently had a look at my blog, and I guess from there he took a tour as well.

 

He was warning us not so much only listen to him, but being careful of believing everything we read on the internet, in general, from sites LIKE Songstuff.

 

He concentrated on Songstuff because I mention it so often.

 

 

Kel

[john]

Not so good then, in that he was warning people about Songstuff, even if the term LIKE was used. Of course when warning people about other places that cover similar things he is really saying listen to me not them, which for a mentor is fair enough I think.

Ideally he would be saying be careful of these other sites however Songstuff is excellent and offers a breadth of very in-depth material for nothing. Lol

Of course to me your mentor has an opinion, like me, like the various consultants and contributors we use including publishers, label owners, professional songwriters, songwriting teachers etc. Sometimes he may be right, sometimes they may be right and sometimes there is no right, just choices and preferences.

Were any other issues on Songstuff highlighted or was the site damned by the illustration of that one possible mistake?

[Rudi]

Goldy

The chorus you mentioned

 

Sticky when rich, it’s on every stitch I stand in  *8 beats
Tarred and pitched, bitching and demanding *8 beats
No I cant let go, I can only touch some more *8 beats (‘yes’ from next line in on the 8^th beat here)
(yes) I know it’s kind of kitsch but you that you’re sticky babe… *8beats
tacit (accompaniment rests) for 4 beats.
Yes you’re sticky when rich (‘yes’ from this line is on 2^nd beat of the rest, and ‘rich’ on the 4^th)

Band resumes but vocal rests for *4 beats prior to next verse.

 

Total= 32 beats. So it tallies up ok.

 

I know this is hard to follow, because I’ve just re-read it. But I must say to you;

Thank you for pointing it out anyway. I am certainly not infallible and could have easily made a mistake. When that happens, I want to know.

 

In the same vein, the scat ‘outro’ made perfect sense in my head when I wrote it. Now, I am struggling to find it again. I could find it eventually, but sometimes we just forget stuff.

 

 

Other query (Jan? Lisa?)

 

‘Hoi polloi’ = common people / proletariat / general public. But is frequently used as a misnomer by people who mistake it to mean the opposite. (the privileged, upper class or them with money).  

 

cheers

Rudi

[Rudi]

John,

Yes, sorry you spent so long trying to ‘console’ me.

I was swayed by what you said by about 25%, reasoning that it was something you spotted on a CD liner note or similar.

So, yes I can be overly trusting/ gullible. So, I thought I would respond in kind. I certainly didn’t intend to piss you off though. Can we just use a in future? huh?

Rudi

[Kel]

I really don't think he was damning Songstuff, but no, no other sites were mentioned.

 

Of course we all have opinions, and as you say, who is to say who is right and who is wrong, when we are after all dealing with subjective viewpoints.

 

Resonable people will analyse the various and sometimes conflicting information we are provided with and come to their own conclusions. There is danger in anyone telling people not to take notice of anyone but themselves, and he certainly wasn't doing that. Of course a reasonable person has a working knowledge of the subject at hand, and anyone taking information in for the first time is bound to be swayed by where that information is coming from. It usually takes more than one conflicting opinion to have people begin to draw their own conclusions.

 

After all, his issue was with one interpretation of one song's form definition. He was never saying, "Don't even bother with Songstuff because it's all wrong." He did point out that from he saw of the site there is a lot of useful technical information on songwriting presented in a way that will help people who want to know how to write songs. I didn't say that earlier, but don't think he was denigrating the site, merely saying that not every source on the internet has accurate information all the time.

 

I will mention to him your invitation to contribute to the site. Although he is "in the industry" he does participate in free workshops based on his songwriting course, but of course, lacking the depth the course covers. He is passionate about songwriting and helping others write in a way the industry wants, so he may see Songstuff as a useful avenue. I don't know, I don't presume to speak for him.

 

Whatever Jacques decides to do, rest assured I will continue to spread the Songstuff word, and recruit as many new Songstuffers as I can. I know Neale signed on here directly from a conversation I had with him. Chalk one up already!  

 

Incidentally, I love the idea of a challenge involving critiques. You may have some knowledge of it yourself, but it is deflating when I see a new notification about a response to a song or lyric I have posted for critique and I open it up and read, "Nice write, man. Keep it up."

 

Doesn't do a lot for improving the craft does it? That is why I do less critiques, but generally more in depth, though I save my mighty efforts for people who PM me for a critique, and although probably fewer than you get, I get them occasionally.

 

I'm off home now after another gruelling day at the coalface. I hope you are faring well, and are fully or near fully recovered from last week's ordeals. (And keep up the challenge back stories, they are great!)

 

Kel

[DonnaMarilyn]

Hi DonnaMarylin, Haven't seen you in forever Hope all has been well.

I hope it is ok that you can use your lyrics because this song works!

I'm thinking this song is a bit long but it tells a gritty story that The Stones  Bones would like. I can hear Mick singing some of these lines for sure.

Lisa

Hi Lisa,

 

All's well, thanks. I took a few months' break from songwriting, which included spending August in Canada. I needed to recharge my batteries.

 

Thanks for your comments on my 'Red Hot Mama' effort. I've decided though to try something from scratch if I get time this week.

 

Donna

[john]

John,Yes, sorry you spent so long trying to ‘console’ me.I was swayed by what you said by about 25%, reasoning that it was something you spotted on a CD liner note or similar.So, yes I can be overly trusting/ gullible. So, I thought I would respond in kind. I certainly didn’t intend to piss you off though. Can we just use a in future? huh?Rudi

Nah, I wasn't pissed off by it, as I say it made me laugh.

[john]

I really don't think he was damning Songstuff, but no, no other sites were mentioned.

 

Of course we all have opinions, and as you say, who is to say who is right and who is wrong, when we are after all dealing with subjective viewpoints.

 

Resonable people will analyse the various and sometimes conflicting information we are provided with and come to their own conclusions. There is danger in anyone telling people not to take notice of anyone but themselves, and he certainly wasn't doing that. Of course a reasonable person has a working knowledge of the subject at hand, and anyone taking information in for the first time is bound to be swayed by where that information is coming from. It usually takes more than one conflicting opinion to have people begin to draw their own conclusions.

 

After all, his issue was with one interpretation of one song's form definition. He was never saying, "Don't even bother with Songstuff because it's all wrong." He did point out that from he saw of the site there is a lot of useful technical information on songwriting presented in a way that will help people who want to know how to write songs. I didn't say that earlier, but don't think he was denigrating the site, merely saying that not every source on the internet has accurate information all the time.

 

A bit of context can make a huge difference in understanding so I am glad I asked. I also don't seek to dismiss his opinion, he may after all be quite correct. As a student having belief in your teacher is an important thing.

I will mention to him your invitation to contribute to the site. Although he is "in the industry" he does participate in free workshops based on his songwriting course, but of course, lacking the depth the course covers. He is passionate about songwriting and helping others write in a way the industry wants, so he may see Songstuff as a useful avenue. I don't know, I don't presume to speak for him.

 

Certainly. If interested great, if not, at least the possibility was explored. Being "in the industry" is exactly what we want. Some in the industry believe that they are so special that they don't have time to help. Sad but very true. Others thankfully remain down to earth and they remain quite approachable and friendly.

Whatever Jacques decides to do, rest assured I will continue to spread the Songstuff word, and recruit as many new Songstuffers as I can. I know Neale signed on here directly from a conversation I had with him. Chalk one up already!  

 

Great!

Incidentally, I love the idea of a challenge involving critiques. You may have some knowledge of it yourself, but it is deflating when I see a new notification about a response to a song or lyric I have posted for critique and I open it up and read, "Nice write, man. Keep it up."

 

Doesn't do a lot for improving the craft does it? That is why I do less critiques, but generally more in depth, though I save my mighty efforts for people who PM me for a critique, and although probably fewer than you get, I get them occasionally.

 

I'm off home now after another gruelling day at the coalface. I hope you are faring well, and are fully or near fully recovered from last week's ordeals. (And keep up the challenge back stories, they are great!)

 

Kel

I have written several articles and many posts on the need for giving quality critique, so I completely understand your approach and viewpoint. It should be a very worthwhile exercise.

Onwards and upwards

[Kel]

Into the song blue yonder...

[Rudi]

changed my mind and went with Drippin' love.

I took the car, destination unknown

Followed the road far away from home

Stopped by a little diner place

There she stood in all her grace

She came up and asked me

Would you like some coffee or tea

Long blond hair, a little bit shy

I replied, what about your pie

Oh, oh, oh

Drippin' love all over the place

On the counter, the table

Running the third baseu[nquote]

Vagda,

The most important thing is that you have the feel of this sort of song pretty much spot on right.

The content is far more boastful than anything Mick has sung (or would dare to probably).

The metaphors work well; ‘pie’ for example. I find you can invent them and make them mean anything you want them to. The stones do this themselves. ‘Brown Sugar’ being an obvious example (a slave girl).

I think you could’ve gone one more yourself in ‘Drippin Love’ with ‘hot sweet coffee’ perhaps? It would have tied in with the title and echoed with all those ‘drippin’ references.

Great to see you going for these challenges. I must remember this when John asks us to write a song for Nellie Furtado or Alfie Boe.

Rudi

PS editor not functioning

Edited October 2, 2013 by Rudi